Move 13

paulunderwood · 2013-10-28, 09:33

Moving Nf6 and then Nd7 will protect our pawn on c5.

Brian-E · 2013-10-28, 10:15

[QUOTE=paulunderwood;357708]Moving Nf6 and then Nd7 will protect our pawn on c5.[/QUOTE]
I like this idea a lot on first glance. If our knight manoeuvres to d7 it is also providing extra defence of the important square e5.

After 13...Nf6 they might also feel that they ought to do something against our possible move ...Ng4 which would require them to move their e3 bishop back off the g1-a7 diagonal as things stand, though whether ...Ng4 would actually be a good move for us is less clear to me. There's no harm in bluffing though, in any case.

Brian-E · 2013-10-28, 12:44

Perhaps the critical response, after 13...Nf6, is 14.e5. Then I think 14...dxe5 15.Bxc5 is bad for us, so 14...Nd7 15.exd6. How do we assess this position? It will take us a bit of time and effort to win the pawn back on d6, but against that we have our long diagonal for our bishop permanently open now, and our central control is better than White's.

richs · 2013-10-28, 14:09

We need to go back to our move 12 analyses since white did O-O as we anticipated.

I plan to further look at Nge7 as our next move.

henryzz · 2013-10-28, 14:15

I think I still prefer the Ne7 routes looked at in the previous thread.

paulunderwood · 2013-10-28, 16:19

13...Nge7 is good if 14.e5 Nf5 attacking their bishop, thus helping to defend c5. :smile:

Brian-E · 2013-10-29, 10:04

[QUOTE=paulunderwood;357737]13...Nge7 is good if 14.e5 Nf5 attacking their bishop, thus helping to defend c5. :smile:[/QUOTE]
...which I expect them to answer with 15.Bf2 to preserve their bishop pair, though Rich was also analysing 15.exd6 in which they allow us to remove their e3 bishop, but I still think that this hands us too much advantage because their bishop is a more important piece than our knight.

My expected line was, and still is: 13...Nge7 14.e5 Nf5 15.Bf2 dxe5 16.fxe5 Nxe5 17.Bxc5 Nxf3+ 18.Bxf3 Bxf3 19.Rxf3 and then either 19...a6 or 19...Bd4+ (this last one swaps bishops) leaving a position where we have, I think, a very slight advantage based on our ability to attack on the c- and d-files with our rooks when we get them organised. Is this correct? Can either side improve?

Are 13...Nge7 and 13...Nf6 our only reasonable candidate moves this time? (I think so at the moment. I think we must develop the g8 knight now.)

henryzz · 2013-10-30, 17:42

[QUOTE=Brian-E;357820]My expected line was, and still is: 13...Nge7 14.e5 Nf5 15.Bf2 dxe5 16.fxe5 Nxe5 17.Bxc5 Nxf3+ 18.Bxf3 Bxf3 19.Rxf3 and then either 19...a6 or 19...Bd4+ (this last one swaps bishops) leaving a position where we have, I think, a very slight advantage based on our ability to attack on the c- and d-files with our rooks when we get them organised. Is this correct? Can either side improve?
[/QUOTE]

I would go for 19...Rc8 that gives us lots of opportunities to keep them running. I am pretty certain we can forcibly get at least a pawn for free after this position.

Brian-E · 2013-10-30, 19:16

[QUOTE=henryzz;357929]I would go for 19...Rc8 that gives us lots of opportunities to keep them running. I am pretty certain we can forcibly get at least a pawn for free after this position.[/QUOTE]
Agreed. Clear advantage to Black.

My current vote is 13...Nge7. I'm expressing that now just in case I don't get back here while I'm on holiday for a week starting Friday, though I do expect to have internet access.

paulunderwood · 2013-10-30, 19:40

I agree with 13...Nge7. :smile:

richs · 2013-10-31, 17:19

I've looked further at 13...Nge7 and I agree that this is the best move.

2013-10-28, 09:33	#1
paulunderwood Sep 2002 Database er0rr 5×937 Posts	Move 13 Moving Nf6 and then Nd7 will protect our pawn on c5.

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2013-10-28, 10:15	#2
Brian-E "Brian" Jul 2007 The Netherlands 6316₈ Posts	[QUOTE=paulunderwood;357708]Moving Nf6 and then Nd7 will protect our pawn on c5.[/QUOTE] I like this idea a lot on first glance. If our knight manoeuvres to d7 it is also providing extra defence of the important square e5. After 13...Nf6 they might also feel that they ought to do something against our possible move ...Ng4 which would require them to move their e3 bishop back off the g1-a7 diagonal as things stand, though whether ...Ng4 would actually be a good move for us is less clear to me. There's no harm in bluffing though, in any case.

2013-10-28, 12:44	#3
Brian-E "Brian" Jul 2007 The Netherlands CCE₁₆ Posts	Perhaps the critical response, after 13...Nf6, is 14.e5. Then I think 14...dxe5 15.Bxc5 is bad for us, so 14...Nd7 15.exd6. How do we assess this position? It will take us a bit of time and effort to win the pawn back on d6, but against that we have our long diagonal for our bishop permanently open now, and our central control is better than White's.

2013-10-28, 14:09	#4
richs "Rich" Aug 2002 Benicia, California 6B6₁₆ Posts	We need to go back to our move 12 analyses since white did O-O as we anticipated. I plan to further look at Nge7 as our next move.

2013-10-28, 14:15	#5
henryzz Just call me Henry "David" Sep 2007 Liverpool (GMT/BST) 3·23·89 Posts	I think I still prefer the Ne7 routes looked at in the previous thread.

2013-10-28, 16:19	#6
paulunderwood Sep 2002 Database er0rr 5×937 Posts	13...Nge7 is good if 14.e5 Nf5 attacking their bishop, thus helping to defend c5. :smile:

2013-10-29, 10:04	#7
Brian-E "Brian" Jul 2007 The Netherlands 6316₈ Posts	[QUOTE=paulunderwood;357737]13...Nge7 is good if 14.e5 Nf5 attacking their bishop, thus helping to defend c5. :smile:[/QUOTE] ...which I expect them to answer with 15.Bf2 to preserve their bishop pair, though Rich was also analysing 15.exd6 in which they allow us to remove their e3 bishop, but I still think that this hands us too much advantage because their bishop is a more important piece than our knight. My expected line was, and still is: 13...Nge7 14.e5 Nf5 15.Bf2 dxe5 16.fxe5 Nxe5 17.Bxc5 Nxf3+ 18.Bxf3 Bxf3 19.Rxf3 and then either 19...a6 or 19...Bd4+ (this last one swaps bishops) leaving a position where we have, I think, a very slight advantage based on our ability to attack on the c- and d-files with our rooks when we get them organised. Is this correct? Can either side improve? Are 13...Nge7 and 13...Nf6 our only reasonable candidate moves this time? (I think so at the moment. I think we must develop the g8 knight now.)

2013-10-30, 17:42	#8
henryzz Just call me Henry "David" Sep 2007 Liverpool (GMT/BST) 6141₁₀ Posts	[QUOTE=Brian-E;357820]My expected line was, and still is: 13...Nge7 14.e5 Nf5 15.Bf2 dxe5 16.fxe5 Nxe5 17.Bxc5 Nxf3+ 18.Bxf3 Bxf3 19.Rxf3 and then either 19...a6 or 19...Bd4+ (this last one swaps bishops) leaving a position where we have, I think, a very slight advantage based on our ability to attack on the c- and d-files with our rooks when we get them organised. Is this correct? Can either side improve? [/QUOTE] I would go for 19...Rc8 that gives us lots of opportunities to keep them running. I am pretty certain we can forcibly get at least a pawn for free after this position.

2013-10-30, 19:16	#9
Brian-E "Brian" Jul 2007 The Netherlands 2×11×149 Posts	[QUOTE=henryzz;357929]I would go for 19...Rc8 that gives us lots of opportunities to keep them running. I am pretty certain we can forcibly get at least a pawn for free after this position.[/QUOTE] Agreed. Clear advantage to Black. My current vote is 13...Nge7. I'm expressing that now just in case I don't get back here while I'm on holiday for a week starting Friday, though I do expect to have internet access.

2013-10-30, 19:40	#10
paulunderwood Sep 2002 Database er0rr 5·937 Posts	I agree with 13...Nge7. :smile:

2013-10-31, 17:19	#11
richs "Rich" Aug 2002 Benicia, California 2×859 Posts	I've looked further at 13...Nge7 and I agree that this is the best move.