Move 12

paulunderwood · 2013-10-14, 15:47

I think 12 Nf3 Ne7 is good for us as we can afterwards castle and so connect our rooks, which are then free to move on the rank 8, maybe followed with attack by us on the queens side.

On second thoughts, considering the possible move 12. e5..., Nc6 is better IMHO.

paulunderwood · 2013-10-14, 17:20

I got things wrong. I meant: 12...Nc6, because White is threatening [B]13[/B].e5... :smile:

paulunderwood · 2013-10-14, 23:48

Another suggestion is 12...Rc8 protecting the pawn on c5 from being taken by White's bishop. Then 13. e5 dxe5 :smile:

Brian-E · 2013-10-15, 00:03

I'm in agreement with the options which Paul gives. And I currently prefer 12...Nc6 in order to bring our offside knight back into play, aim at ...b4 (and counter White's possibility of b4 when the pin on the long diagonal has been dealt with), free our a-pawn to advance if desired, and - indeed - to prevent e5 for the time being. It's not clear to me that our rook is better placed on c8 than b8 at the moment, so I like 12...Rc8 much less.

richs · 2013-10-15, 01:14

We had planned on 12...Nc6 in our Move 11 deliberations. I played this out with 13...Nge7 as follows but we lose a pawn since our c5 pawn is unprotected:

12. ... Nc6
13. O-O Nge7
14. e5 Nf5
15. exd6 Ncd4
16. Bxd4 cxd4

So then I looked at 13...Nf6:

12. ... Nc6
13. O-O Nf6
14. e5 dxe5
15. Bxc5 exf4
16. gxf4 Nd5

where we end up even on material and better control of the center.

Thoughts?

Brian-E · 2013-10-15, 09:14

[QUOTE=richs;356254]We had planned on 12...Nc6 in our Move 11 deliberations. I played this out with 13...Nge7 as follows but we lose a pawn since our c5 pawn is unprotected:

12. ... Nc6
13. O-O Nge7
14. e5 Nf5
15. exd6 Ncd4
16. Bxd4 cxd4

So then I looked at 13...Nf6:

12. ... Nc6
13. O-O Nf6
14. e5 dxe5
15. Bxc5 exf4
16. gxf4 Nd5

where we end up even on material and better control of the center.

Thoughts?[/QUOTE]
In your second line, can they perhaps improve with (12...Nc6 13.O-O Nf6 14.e5 dxe5) [U]15.fxe5[/U] Ng4 16.Bxc5 Ngxe5 (otherwise d4 with a big advantage) 17.Nxe5 Bxe5 18.Bxc6+ Bxc6 19.Bxa7? Against the pawn deficit we do have a powerful bishop pair in an open position as compensation, but White will play d4 and later bring the rooks to the f- and/or e-files with pressure, so they have good play too, meaning that I'm not sure our compensation for the pawn is adequate.

I prefer your first line with 13...Nge7 on principle because I find that a more natural looking development of the knight, not blocking our bishop and looking at f5. In the line you give I think we get a better game with (12...Nc6 13.O-O Nge7 14.e5 Nf5 15.exd6) [U]Nxe3[/U] 16.Nxe3 Rd8 ready to recapture on d6, and our unopposed dark squared bishop is very powerful. So I think they should preserve their bishop here with 15.Bf2 and we have to be careful not to lose a pawn here too: 15...Ncd4?! 16.Nxd4 Bxg2 (or 16...cxd4 17.g4 Ne3 18.Nxe3 dxe3 19.Bxe3 forces 19...Bxg2 transposing) 17.Kxg2 cxd4 18.g4 Ne3+ 19.Nxe3 dxe3 20.Bxe3 dxe5 (20...Rc8 21.c3 is no better) 21.Bxa7 Rc8 22.c3 and White should win the ending. So instead I think we must go for (12...Nc6 13.O-O Nge7 14.e5 Nf5 15.Bf2) 15...dxe5 16.fxe5 Nxe5 17.Bxc5 with a similar type of position as the one you ended up at the end of your second line. After 17...Nxf3+ 18.Bxf3 Bxf3 19.Rxf3 a6, or maybe 19...Bd4+ to swap bishops and castle, I think we are fine.

richs · 2013-10-15, 13:19

If they decline 15. Bf2 and instead 15. exd6, I think we have to castle at some point:

12. ... Nc6
13. O-O Nge7
14. e5 Nf5
15. exd6 Nxe3
16. Nxe3 Rd8
17. a4 a6
18. axb5 axb5
19. Ne5 Rxd6
20. Bxc6+ Bxc6
21. Ra6

and we are in trouble. Of course, this is only one line and is looking very far out.

paulunderwood · 2013-10-15, 15:23

Another line, open for criticism:

12...Nc6
13. O-O e5
14. fxe5 Nxe5

Brian-E · 2013-10-15, 22:25

[QUOTE=richs;356289]If they decline 15. Bf2 and instead 15. exd6, I think we have to castle at some point:

12. ... Nc6
13. O-O Nge7
14. e5 Nf5
15. exd6 Nxe3
16. Nxe3 Rd8
17. a4 a6
18. axb5 axb5
19. Ne5 Rxd6
20. Bxc6+ Bxc6
21. Ra6

and we are in trouble. Of course, this is only one line and is looking very far out.[/QUOTE]
Yes, we'd need to avoid that. But I actually missed simply 16...Bxb2 in my earlier analysis here. Is that the best refutation of White's play, perhaps? If 17.Rb1 Bxa3 18.Rxb5 Ba6 19.Rxb8+ Nxb8 20.Rb1 O-O or 20.Ra1 Bb4 and ...O-O and we can round up the d6 pawn at our leisure.

[QUOTE=paulunderwood;356298]Another line, open for criticism:

12...Nc6
13. O-O e5
14. fxe5 Nxe5[/QUOTE]
Yes, that's the really radical way to stop them playing e5. :-)
I'm not sure that 14.fxe5 is their best reply here. I think they can just quietly consolidate, playing either Nc3-d5 or alternatively c3, Nf2, etc, because we probably don't really want to play ...exf4 allowing Bxf4 and pressure on d6.

As a general remark: we seem to be discussing only possible continuations from 12...Nc6 at the moment. Does anyone currently fancy Paul's 12...Rc8 or any other move?

richs · 2013-10-16, 11:35

I am for 12...Nc6

Brian-E · 2013-10-17, 09:22

[QUOTE=richs;356394]I am for 12...Nc6[/QUOTE]
So am I.

2013-10-14, 15:47	#1
paulunderwood Sep 2002 Database er0rr 1001001001101₂ Posts	Move 12 I think 12 Nf3 Ne7 is good for us as we can afterwards castle and so connect our rooks, which are then free to move on the rank 8, maybe followed with attack by us on the queens side. On second thoughts, considering the possible move 12. e5..., Nc6 is better IMHO. Last fiddled with by paulunderwood on 2013-10-14 at 16:45

2013-10-15, 09:14	#6
Brian-E "Brian" Jul 2007 The Netherlands 110011001110₂ Posts	[QUOTE=richs;356254]We had planned on 12...Nc6 in our Move 11 deliberations. I played this out with 13...Nge7 as follows but we lose a pawn since our c5 pawn is unprotected: 12. ... Nc6 13. O-O Nge7 14. e5 Nf5 15. exd6 Ncd4 16. Bxd4 cxd4 So then I looked at 13...Nf6: 12. ... Nc6 13. O-O Nf6 14. e5 dxe5 15. Bxc5 exf4 16. gxf4 Nd5 where we end up even on material and better control of the center. Thoughts?[/QUOTE] In your second line, can they perhaps improve with (12...Nc6 13.O-O Nf6 14.e5 dxe5) [U]15.fxe5[/U] Ng4 16.Bxc5 Ngxe5 (otherwise d4 with a big advantage) 17.Nxe5 Bxe5 18.Bxc6+ Bxc6 19.Bxa7? Against the pawn deficit we do have a powerful bishop pair in an open position as compensation, but White will play d4 and later bring the rooks to the f- and/or e-files with pressure, so they have good play too, meaning that I'm not sure our compensation for the pawn is adequate. I prefer your first line with 13...Nge7 on principle because I find that a more natural looking development of the knight, not blocking our bishop and looking at f5. In the line you give I think we get a better game with (12...Nc6 13.O-O Nge7 14.e5 Nf5 15.exd6) [U]Nxe3[/U] 16.Nxe3 Rd8 ready to recapture on d6, and our unopposed dark squared bishop is very powerful. So I think they should preserve their bishop here with 15.Bf2 and we have to be careful not to lose a pawn here too: 15...Ncd4?! 16.Nxd4 Bxg2 (or 16...cxd4 17.g4 Ne3 18.Nxe3 dxe3 19.Bxe3 forces 19...Bxg2 transposing) 17.Kxg2 cxd4 18.g4 Ne3+ 19.Nxe3 dxe3 20.Bxe3 dxe5 (20...Rc8 21.c3 is no better) 21.Bxa7 Rc8 22.c3 and White should win the ending. So instead I think we must go for (12...Nc6 13.O-O Nge7 14.e5 Nf5 15.Bf2) 15...dxe5 16.fxe5 Nxe5 17.Bxc5 with a similar type of position as the one you ended up at the end of your second line. After 17...Nxf3+ 18.Bxf3 Bxf3 19.Rxf3 a6, or maybe 19...Bd4+ to swap bishops and castle, I think we are fine. Last fiddled with by Brian-E on 2013-10-15 at 09:27

2013-10-15, 15:23	#8
paulunderwood Sep 2002 Database er0rr 5×937 Posts	Another line, open for criticism: 12...Nc6 13. O-O e5 14. fxe5 Nxe5 Last fiddled with by paulunderwood on 2013-10-15 at 15:31

2013-10-15, 22:25	#9
Brian-E "Brian" Jul 2007 The Netherlands 2·11·149 Posts	[QUOTE=richs;356289]If they decline 15. Bf2 and instead 15. exd6, I think we have to castle at some point: 12. ... Nc6 13. O-O Nge7 14. e5 Nf5 15. exd6 Nxe3 16. Nxe3 Rd8 17. a4 a6 18. axb5 axb5 19. Ne5 Rxd6 20. Bxc6+ Bxc6 21. Ra6 and we are in trouble. Of course, this is only one line and is looking very far out.[/QUOTE] Yes, we'd need to avoid that. But I actually missed simply 16...Bxb2 in my earlier analysis here. Is that the best refutation of White's play, perhaps? If 17.Rb1 Bxa3 18.Rxb5 Ba6 19.Rxb8+ Nxb8 20.Rb1 O-O or 20.Ra1 Bb4 and ...O-O and we can round up the d6 pawn at our leisure. [QUOTE=paulunderwood;356298]Another line, open for criticism: 12...Nc6 13. O-O e5 14. fxe5 Nxe5[/QUOTE] Yes, that's the really radical way to stop them playing e5. :-) I'm not sure that 14.fxe5 is their best reply here. I think they can just quietly consolidate, playing either Nc3-d5 or alternatively c3, Nf2, etc, because we probably don't really want to play ...exf4 allowing Bxf4 and pressure on d6. As a general remark: we seem to be discussing only possible continuations from 12...Nc6 at the moment. Does anyone currently fancy Paul's 12...Rc8 or any other move? Last fiddled with by Brian-E on 2013-10-15 at 22:41 Reason: some errors and omissions

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2013-10-14, 17:20	#2
paulunderwood Sep 2002 Database er0rr 1001001001101₂ Posts	I got things wrong. I meant: 12...Nc6, because White is threatening [B]13[/B].e5... :smile:

2013-10-14, 23:48	#3
paulunderwood Sep 2002 Database er0rr 5·937 Posts	Another suggestion is 12...Rc8 protecting the pawn on c5 from being taken by White's bishop. Then 13. e5 dxe5 :smile:

2013-10-15, 00:03	#4
Brian-E "Brian" Jul 2007 The Netherlands 110011001110₂ Posts	I'm in agreement with the options which Paul gives. And I currently prefer 12...Nc6 in order to bring our offside knight back into play, aim at ...b4 (and counter White's possibility of b4 when the pin on the long diagonal has been dealt with), free our a-pawn to advance if desired, and - indeed - to prevent e5 for the time being. It's not clear to me that our rook is better placed on c8 than b8 at the moment, so I like 12...Rc8 much less.

2013-10-15, 01:14	#5
richs "Rich" Aug 2002 Benicia, California 11010110110₂ Posts	We had planned on 12...Nc6 in our Move 11 deliberations. I played this out with 13...Nge7 as follows but we lose a pawn since our c5 pawn is unprotected: 12. ... Nc6 13. O-O Nge7 14. e5 Nf5 15. exd6 Ncd4 16. Bxd4 cxd4 So then I looked at 13...Nf6: 12. ... Nc6 13. O-O Nf6 14. e5 dxe5 15. Bxc5 exf4 16. gxf4 Nd5 where we end up even on material and better control of the center. Thoughts?

2013-10-15, 13:19	#7
richs "Rich" Aug 2002 Benicia, California 2×859 Posts	If they decline 15. Bf2 and instead 15. exd6, I think we have to castle at some point: 12. ... Nc6 13. O-O Nge7 14. e5 Nf5 15. exd6 Nxe3 16. Nxe3 Rd8 17. a4 a6 18. axb5 axb5 19. Ne5 Rxd6 20. Bxc6+ Bxc6 21. Ra6 and we are in trouble. Of course, this is only one line and is looking very far out.

2013-10-16, 11:35	#10
richs "Rich" Aug 2002 Benicia, California 3266₈ Posts	I am for 12...Nc6

2013-10-17, 09:22	#11
Brian-E "Brian" Jul 2007 The Netherlands 2×11×149 Posts	[QUOTE=richs;356394]I am for 12...Nc6[/QUOTE] So am I.