Move 11

Brian-E · 2013-10-02, 16:13

If they want to make an immediate threat now, instead of just completing their kingside development, they may move the rook on a1 so that they are threatening to play b4 nibbling at c5 and stopping our expansion.

If 11.Rb1 or 11.Rc1 we are able to reply 11...b4 ourselves, but not after 11.Ra2 when our knight is hanging after 11...b4? 12.axb4. Then instead, how do we assess the position after 11.Ra2 Nc6 12.b4 cxb4 13.axb4 Nxb4 14.Bxa7 Nxa2 15.Bxb8? And can we (or they) improve on this?

paulunderwood · 2013-10-05, 09:07

Now White has moved 11. f4, I think we should try to get our rooks mobilized and connected.

11...Nc6 looks like good move as White is threatening 12. e5.

henryzz · 2013-10-05, 10:36

It seems to me like we need to sort out our knights. Like Paul said they are threatening 12.e5 currently which suggests we should do 11...Nc6.
Our other knight is blocking us from castling and joining up our rooks. Nf6 blocks our bishop. Ne7 doesn't do much although it could be moved to Nc6 in the future potentially. Nh6 could potentially need a look at as it would help solidify our kingside and provide a threat of moving to g4.

Brian-E · 2013-10-05, 14:43

In principle I would want to play 11...Nc6 too, but doesn't it lose a pawn to 12.e5? Both c6 and d6 are then attacked, and if 12...d5 13.Bxc5. Am I missing something?

We could play 11...Bb7 now which prevents them playing e5 immediately (they would have to prepare it with 12.Nf3), and we can then aim to play ...Nc6 next move now that c6 is protected by the bishop. I agree that ...Nc6 needs to be got in as soon as possible, especially since they will be threatening to play b4 once they have dealt with the open long diagonal h8-a1. So I currently advocate 11...Bb7 preparing ...Nc6.

paulunderwood · 2013-10-05, 16:05

A like your plan, Brian, to pin e4. :smile:

henryzz · 2013-10-05, 22:09

Strictly speaking 11...Nc6 12.e5 doesn't lose a pawn. 12...Nd4 13. Bxd4 cxd4 14. exd6 Rb6 15. xxx Rxd6

I don't like the way that Bb7 blocks the b rook's file although apart from that it is a good move.

paulunderwood · 2013-10-05, 23:54

David's play to get our knight onto d4, threatening a king-rook fork, is also good. :smile:

Do you have any scenarios of play richs?

Brian-E · 2013-10-07, 09:27

Yes, I agree that David's suggestion 11...Nc6 in conjunction with ...Nd4 is playable and may be quite good for us. It also gives them the following chance to go wrong: 11...Nc6 12.e5 Nd4 13.Bxd4 cxd4 14.Nf3 (better is probably David's 14.exd6, or perhaps 14.Bc6+ Bd7 15.Bxd7+ Kxd7 16.Nf3) dxe5 15.fxe5? (better 15.Nxe5 Ne7 and perhaps our bishop pair gives us a slight advantage) Bb7 followed by ...Bxf3 and ...Bxe5 winning a pawn.

Some lines (when White plays more sensibly) following 11...Nc6 seem to lead to a position where both sides have a weak, isolated centre pawn, ours on d4 and theirs on e5. But all these lines seem okay for us as far as I can see.

I'm currently happy with either 11...Nc6 or 11...Bb7.

richs · 2013-10-07, 12:22

I played an unconventional line with 11. Nc6 where I moved our king into play:

11. ... Nc6
12. e5 Kd7
13. Nf3 Nh6
14. exd6 Kxd6
15. Nc3 Nd4
16. Bxd4 cxd4
17. Ne4+ Kc7

We end up with two bishops vs. their two knights, but I don't like it since our king is exposed.

And I looked at another line with 11. Bb7:

11. f4 Bb7
12. Nf3 Ne7
13. O-O O-O
14. e5 Nf5
15. Bd2 Nc6
16. g4 Nfd4
17. Nxd4 Nxd4
18. exd6 Rfd8

I think the advantage is with us.

So I'm also ok with either Nc6 or Bb7 at this time.

paulunderwood · 2013-10-07, 22:57

Which move to make? I am 55% for Bb7 and 45% for Nc6. :smile:

henryzz · 2013-10-08, 10:34

Probably around time to start taking a vote.
Currently:
Brian 50% Nc6 50% Bb7
richs 50% Nc6 50% Bb7
paul 45% Nc6 55% Bb7
me 81% Nc6 19% Bb7

Totals
226% Nc6 174% Bb7
I have assumed 50% if you have said don't mind.

2013-10-02, 16:13	#1
Brian-E "Brian" Jul 2007 The Netherlands 2·11·149 Posts	Move 11 If they want to make an immediate threat now, instead of just completing their kingside development, they may move the rook on a1 so that they are threatening to play b4 nibbling at c5 and stopping our expansion. If 11.Rb1 or 11.Rc1 we are able to reply 11...b4 ourselves, but not after 11.Ra2 when our knight is hanging after 11...b4? 12.axb4. Then instead, how do we assess the position after 11.Ra2 Nc6 12.b4 cxb4 13.axb4 Nxb4 14.Bxa7 Nxa2 15.Bxb8? And can we (or they) improve on this?

2013-10-05, 09:07	#2
paulunderwood Sep 2002 Database er0rr 1001001001101₂ Posts	Now White has moved 11. f4, I think we should try to get our rooks mobilized and connected. 11...Nc6 looks like good move as White is threatening 12. e5. Last fiddled with by paulunderwood on 2013-10-05 at 09:15

2013-10-07, 09:27	#8
Brian-E "Brian" Jul 2007 The Netherlands 2·11·149 Posts	Yes, I agree that David's suggestion 11...Nc6 in conjunction with ...Nd4 is playable and may be quite good for us. It also gives them the following chance to go wrong: 11...Nc6 12.e5 Nd4 13.Bxd4 cxd4 14.Nf3 (better is probably David's 14.exd6, or perhaps 14.Bc6+ Bd7 15.Bxd7+ Kxd7 16.Nf3) dxe5 15.fxe5? (better 15.Nxe5 Ne7 and perhaps our bishop pair gives us a slight advantage) Bb7 followed by ...Bxf3 and ...Bxe5 winning a pawn. Some lines (when White plays more sensibly) following 11...Nc6 seem to lead to a position where both sides have a weak, isolated centre pawn, ours on d4 and theirs on e5. But all these lines seem okay for us as far as I can see. I'm currently happy with either 11...Nc6 or 11...Bb7. Last fiddled with by Brian-E on 2013-10-07 at 09:37 Reason: a couple of errors corrected

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2013-10-05, 10:36	#3
henryzz Just call me Henry "David" Sep 2007 Liverpool (GMT/BST) 3×23×89 Posts	It seems to me like we need to sort out our knights. Like Paul said they are threatening 12.e5 currently which suggests we should do 11...Nc6. Our other knight is blocking us from castling and joining up our rooks. Nf6 blocks our bishop. Ne7 doesn't do much although it could be moved to Nc6 in the future potentially. Nh6 could potentially need a look at as it would help solidify our kingside and provide a threat of moving to g4.

2013-10-05, 14:43	#4
Brian-E "Brian" Jul 2007 The Netherlands 3278₁₀ Posts	In principle I would want to play 11...Nc6 too, but doesn't it lose a pawn to 12.e5? Both c6 and d6 are then attacked, and if 12...d5 13.Bxc5. Am I missing something? We could play 11...Bb7 now which prevents them playing e5 immediately (they would have to prepare it with 12.Nf3), and we can then aim to play ...Nc6 next move now that c6 is protected by the bishop. I agree that ...Nc6 needs to be got in as soon as possible, especially since they will be threatening to play b4 once they have dealt with the open long diagonal h8-a1. So I currently advocate 11...Bb7 preparing ...Nc6.

2013-10-05, 16:05	#5
paulunderwood Sep 2002 Database er0rr 1001001001101₂ Posts	A like your plan, Brian, to pin e4. :smile:

2013-10-05, 22:09	#6
henryzz Just call me Henry "David" Sep 2007 Liverpool (GMT/BST) 3×23×89 Posts	Strictly speaking 11...Nc6 12.e5 doesn't lose a pawn. 12...Nd4 13. Bxd4 cxd4 14. exd6 Rb6 15. xxx Rxd6 I don't like the way that Bb7 blocks the b rook's file although apart from that it is a good move.

2013-10-05, 23:54	#7
paulunderwood Sep 2002 Database er0rr 5·937 Posts	David's play to get our knight onto d4, threatening a king-rook fork, is also good. :smile: Do you have any scenarios of play richs?

2013-10-07, 12:22	#9
richs "Rich" Aug 2002 Benicia, California 11010110110₂ Posts	I played an unconventional line with 11. Nc6 where I moved our king into play: 11. ... Nc6 12. e5 Kd7 13. Nf3 Nh6 14. exd6 Kxd6 15. Nc3 Nd4 16. Bxd4 cxd4 17. Ne4+ Kc7 We end up with two bishops vs. their two knights, but I don't like it since our king is exposed. And I looked at another line with 11. Bb7: 11. f4 Bb7 12. Nf3 Ne7 13. O-O O-O 14. e5 Nf5 15. Bd2 Nc6 16. g4 Nfd4 17. Nxd4 Nxd4 18. exd6 Rfd8 I think the advantage is with us. So I'm also ok with either Nc6 or Bb7 at this time.

2013-10-07, 22:57	#10
paulunderwood Sep 2002 Database er0rr 5·937 Posts	Which move to make? I am 55% for Bb7 and 45% for Nc6. :smile:

2013-10-08, 10:34	#11
henryzz Just call me Henry "David" Sep 2007 Liverpool (GMT/BST) 3×23×89 Posts	Probably around time to start taking a vote. Currently: Brian 50% Nc6 50% Bb7 richs 50% Nc6 50% Bb7 paul 45% Nc6 55% Bb7 me 81% Nc6 19% Bb7 Totals 226% Nc6 174% Bb7 I have assumed 50% if you have said don't mind.