Move 9

henryzz · 2013-09-19, 15:55

White has moved 9.a3.
Moves like Bb7 and Nge7 spring to mind although there are plenty of other possibilities.

paulunderwood · 2013-09-19, 18:07

...Nge7 is solid move :smile:

We have plenty of time to consider the possibilies such as ...Qa5.

Brian-E · 2013-09-19, 21:40

Yes, plenty of time to consider the possibilities.

9...Nge7 can of course be answered by 10.Bh6. Perfectly playable, but we must be prepared for that.

I *do* like Paul's suggested 9...Qa5. If they swap queens I suggest that we have equalised very easily (no attack on the king possible for White in the middlegame), and in fact I think we have a slight advantage because of our queenside pressure. And if they don't, then we are clearly following it up with ...b4, taking advantage of the pin on the a-file which means that White can't play axb4.

Other possibilities, in addition to David's suggested 9...Bb7, are 9...h5 (intending ...Nge7 without allowing Bh6), 9...Bd7 (developing the bishop and defending c6 without blocking the b8 rook which is the disadvantage of putting the bishop on b7), 9...Qc7 (less ambitious than ...Qa5 but solid, and defending both c6 and a7), and 9...a5 (though I don't personally like this move here).

Lots to consider.

Brian-E · 2013-09-20, 08:46

One sample line following ...Qa5:

9...Qa5 10.c3 b4 11.Ne2 Ba6 (threat ...Ne5) 12.d4 (12.f4 may be better) cxd4 13.Nxd4 (if 13.cxd4 Bxe2 and Black must either recapture with the king leaving it stranded in the centre or lose the d pawn) bxc3 14.Nxc3 Ne5 threatening ...Nd3+ is very good for Black.

White can surely improve on this, of course.

henryzz · 2013-09-20, 11:00

Assuming he replies with Bh6 we can add in Qa5 helpfully.
9...Nge7 10.Bh6 Bxh6 11.Qxh6 Qa5+
It all depends on what we expect them to do after that. Qd2 or c3 are the sensible moves.
After 12.c3 we can do Ne5 attacking d3. This puts him on the defensive. He will almost certainly have to move his queen back from h6.

There are certainly improvements from white in your sequence. Probably in mine as well. c3 generally isn't a great move for them currently because of Ne5.

Brian-E · 2013-09-20, 14:02

[QUOTE=henryzz;353555]Assuming he replies with Bh6 we can add in Qa5 helpfully.
9...Nge7 10.Bh6 Bxh6 11.Qxh6 Qa5+
It all depends on what we expect them to do after that. Qd2 or c3 are the sensible moves.
After 12.c3 we can do Ne5 attacking d3. This puts him on the defensive. He will almost certainly have to move his queen back from h6.[/QUOTE]
Maybe White's best is 12.Kf1. They are then threatening Qg7 followed, after we move our h8 rook, by Qxh7. I don't see how we can avoid that.
We might get some counterplay with ...Nd4 and hoping to infiltrate with our queen on d2, but it seems to me that they can aim to deal with these threats in their own time before playing Qg7 which we cannot ultimately prevent. For example: 9...Nge7 10.Bh6 Bxh6 11.Qxh6 Qa5+ 12.Kf1 Nd4 13.Ne3. Then 13...Qd2 is answered simply by 14.Rd1, and White is ready to play Qg7, help themselves to our h-pawn and attack our king by advancing their h-pawn and/or with Ng1-h3-g5.

henryzz · 2013-09-20, 23:13

13...Qd2 seems like a bit of a crummy move to me. Can I suggest 13...Qa4?

richs · 2013-09-20, 23:30

How about 9. ... Nf6? Here's a queen exchange line if they get adventurous with their queen:

9. ... Nf6
10. Bh6 Bxh6
11. Qxh6 Ng4
12. Qg7 Qf6
13. Qxf6 Nxf6

If they are more sensible:

9. a3 Nf6
10. Bh6 Bxh6
11. Qxh6 Ng4
12. Qd2 O-O
13. Ne2 Qf6
followed by White castling.

We are in a strong position then. Any holes in the above?

paulunderwood · 2013-09-21, 13:29

That seems like a solid plan :smile:

Brian-E · 2013-09-21, 16:54

[QUOTE=henryzz;353652]13...Qd2 seems like a bit of a crummy move to me. Can I suggest 13...Qa4?[/QUOTE]
(after 9...Nge7 10.Bh6 Bxh6 11.Qxh6 Qa5+ 12.Kf1 Nd4 13.Ne3)
Of course 13...Qd2? is a crummy move. I was demonstrating that White had effectively [I]prevented[/I] our queen invasion on d2. After 13...Qa4 14.b3 what would you intend to do about their coming Qg7 followed by Qxh7, David?

[QUOTE=richs;353655]How about 9. ... Nf6? Here's a queen exchange line if they get adventurous with their queen:

9. ... Nf6
10. Bh6 Bxh6
11. Qxh6 Ng4
12. Qg7 Qf6
13. Qxf6 Nxf6

If they are more sensible:

9. a3 Nf6
10. Bh6 Bxh6
11. Qxh6 Ng4
12. Qd2 O-O
13. Ne2 Qf6
followed by White castling.

We are in a strong position then. Any holes in the above?[/QUOTE]
9...Nf6 is certainly playable. I agree with you, Rich, that they cannot then get any clear advantage from 10.Bh6.

However, I don't think your second line 9.a3 Nf6 10.Bh6 Bxh6 11.Qxh6 Ng4 12.Qd2 O-O 13.Ne2 Qf6 gives us any particular advantage either, despite their weak 8th and 9th moves, and our castled king position is vulnerable without the fianchettoed g7 bishop. They can force us back with 14.h3 Nge5 15.f4 Nd7 (that's a little loose for them so they may prefer to wait with f4 and prepare it first with O-O and Kh2, or play c3 and d4 instead). They have attacking chances in my opinion. They may instead castle queenside (after c3 and Ne3) and start a kingside pawn storm. I am not suggesting that we are worse - I think we're okay if we're careful - but I think our position is a bit passive at best.

My inclination generally is to punish White for their lacklustre moves Nd1 and a3. I think we can get a slightly better position with the more positive 9...Qa5 as I analysed earlier. Can you guys refute that move?

richs · 2013-09-22, 03:44

Since we have plenty of time (5 days), I will look more closely at Qa5, Brian. I tend to dismiss a queen move to the edge of the board in the opening, but I understand where you are coming from, so give me a couple of days since I am super busy Sunday with my new grand-daughter! :smile: I like the idea of punishment for weak moves....

2013-09-19, 15:55	#1
henryzz Just call me Henry "David" Sep 2007 Liverpool (GMT/BST) 3×23×89 Posts	Move 9 White has moved 9.a3. Moves like Bb7 and Nge7 spring to mind although there are plenty of other possibilities.

2013-09-20, 14:02	#6
Brian-E "Brian" Jul 2007 The Netherlands 2×11×149 Posts	[QUOTE=henryzz;353555]Assuming he replies with Bh6 we can add in Qa5 helpfully. 9...Nge7 10.Bh6 Bxh6 11.Qxh6 Qa5+ It all depends on what we expect them to do after that. Qd2 or c3 are the sensible moves. After 12.c3 we can do Ne5 attacking d3. This puts him on the defensive. He will almost certainly have to move his queen back from h6.[/QUOTE] Maybe White's best is 12.Kf1. They are then threatening Qg7 followed, after we move our h8 rook, by Qxh7. I don't see how we can avoid that. We might get some counterplay with ...Nd4 and hoping to infiltrate with our queen on d2, but it seems to me that they can aim to deal with these threats in their own time before playing Qg7 which we cannot ultimately prevent. For example: 9...Nge7 10.Bh6 Bxh6 11.Qxh6 Qa5+ 12.Kf1 Nd4 13.Ne3. Then 13...Qd2 is answered simply by 14.Rd1, and White is ready to play Qg7, help themselves to our h-pawn and attack our king by advancing their h-pawn and/or with Ng1-h3-g5. Last fiddled with by Brian-E on 2013-09-20 at 14:34 Reason: Final analysis line added.

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2013-09-19, 18:07	#2
paulunderwood Sep 2002 Database er0rr 5·937 Posts	...Nge7 is solid move :smile: We have plenty of time to consider the possibilies such as ...Qa5.

2013-09-19, 21:40	#3
Brian-E "Brian" Jul 2007 The Netherlands 110011001110₂ Posts	Yes, plenty of time to consider the possibilities. 9...Nge7 can of course be answered by 10.Bh6. Perfectly playable, but we must be prepared for that. I do like Paul's suggested 9...Qa5. If they swap queens I suggest that we have equalised very easily (no attack on the king possible for White in the middlegame), and in fact I think we have a slight advantage because of our queenside pressure. And if they don't, then we are clearly following it up with ...b4, taking advantage of the pin on the a-file which means that White can't play axb4. Other possibilities, in addition to David's suggested 9...Bb7, are 9...h5 (intending ...Nge7 without allowing Bh6), 9...Bd7 (developing the bishop and defending c6 without blocking the b8 rook which is the disadvantage of putting the bishop on b7), 9...Qc7 (less ambitious than ...Qa5 but solid, and defending both c6 and a7), and 9...a5 (though I don't personally like this move here). Lots to consider.

2013-09-20, 08:46	#4
Brian-E "Brian" Jul 2007 The Netherlands 2×11×149 Posts	One sample line following ...Qa5: 9...Qa5 10.c3 b4 11.Ne2 Ba6 (threat ...Ne5) 12.d4 (12.f4 may be better) cxd4 13.Nxd4 (if 13.cxd4 Bxe2 and Black must either recapture with the king leaving it stranded in the centre or lose the d pawn) bxc3 14.Nxc3 Ne5 threatening ...Nd3+ is very good for Black. White can surely improve on this, of course.

2013-09-20, 11:00	#5
henryzz Just call me Henry "David" Sep 2007 Liverpool (GMT/BST) 3×23×89 Posts	Assuming he replies with Bh6 we can add in Qa5 helpfully. 9...Nge7 10.Bh6 Bxh6 11.Qxh6 Qa5+ It all depends on what we expect them to do after that. Qd2 or c3 are the sensible moves. After 12.c3 we can do Ne5 attacking d3. This puts him on the defensive. He will almost certainly have to move his queen back from h6. There are certainly improvements from white in your sequence. Probably in mine as well. c3 generally isn't a great move for them currently because of Ne5.

2013-09-20, 23:13	#7
henryzz Just call me Henry "David" Sep 2007 Liverpool (GMT/BST) 13775₈ Posts	13...Qd2 seems like a bit of a crummy move to me. Can I suggest 13...Qa4?

2013-09-20, 23:30	#8
richs "Rich" Aug 2002 Benicia, California 2×859 Posts	How about 9. ... Nf6? Here's a queen exchange line if they get adventurous with their queen: 9. ... Nf6 10. Bh6 Bxh6 11. Qxh6 Ng4 12. Qg7 Qf6 13. Qxf6 Nxf6 If they are more sensible: 9. a3 Nf6 10. Bh6 Bxh6 11. Qxh6 Ng4 12. Qd2 O-O 13. Ne2 Qf6 followed by White castling. We are in a strong position then. Any holes in the above?

2013-09-21, 13:29	#9
paulunderwood Sep 2002 Database er0rr 5×937 Posts	That seems like a solid plan :smile:

2013-09-21, 16:54	#10
Brian-E "Brian" Jul 2007 The Netherlands 2·11·149 Posts	[QUOTE=henryzz;353652]13...Qd2 seems like a bit of a crummy move to me. Can I suggest 13...Qa4?[/QUOTE] (after 9...Nge7 10.Bh6 Bxh6 11.Qxh6 Qa5+ 12.Kf1 Nd4 13.Ne3) Of course 13...Qd2? is a crummy move. I was demonstrating that White had effectively [I]prevented[/I] our queen invasion on d2. After 13...Qa4 14.b3 what would you intend to do about their coming Qg7 followed by Qxh7, David? [QUOTE=richs;353655]How about 9. ... Nf6? Here's a queen exchange line if they get adventurous with their queen: 9. ... Nf6 10. Bh6 Bxh6 11. Qxh6 Ng4 12. Qg7 Qf6 13. Qxf6 Nxf6 If they are more sensible: 9. a3 Nf6 10. Bh6 Bxh6 11. Qxh6 Ng4 12. Qd2 O-O 13. Ne2 Qf6 followed by White castling. We are in a strong position then. Any holes in the above?[/QUOTE] 9...Nf6 is certainly playable. I agree with you, Rich, that they cannot then get any clear advantage from 10.Bh6. However, I don't think your second line 9.a3 Nf6 10.Bh6 Bxh6 11.Qxh6 Ng4 12.Qd2 O-O 13.Ne2 Qf6 gives us any particular advantage either, despite their weak 8th and 9th moves, and our castled king position is vulnerable without the fianchettoed g7 bishop. They can force us back with 14.h3 Nge5 15.f4 Nd7 (that's a little loose for them so they may prefer to wait with f4 and prepare it first with O-O and Kh2, or play c3 and d4 instead). They have attacking chances in my opinion. They may instead castle queenside (after c3 and Ne3) and start a kingside pawn storm. I am not suggesting that we are worse - I think we're okay if we're careful - but I think our position is a bit passive at best. My inclination generally is to punish White for their lacklustre moves Nd1 and a3. I think we can get a slightly better position with the more positive 9...Qa5 as I analysed earlier. Can you guys refute that move?

2013-09-22, 03:44	#11
richs "Rich" Aug 2002 Benicia, California 2·859 Posts	Since we have plenty of time (5 days), I will look more closely at Qa5, Brian. I tend to dismiss a queen move to the edge of the board in the opening, but I understand where you are coming from, so give me a couple of days since I am super busy Sunday with my new grand-daughter! :smile: I like the idea of punishment for weak moves....