White 08

LaurV · 2013-09-04, 16:44

I would definitively play Nf3 here... :w00t:
But of course, we are open to debates...

WMHalsdorf · 2013-09-04, 19:05

I'm looking at Nd1 followed by c3 at the moment there is also f4 and Nge2 to consider. I currently favor f4 over Nge2 with Nf3 and Nd1 better than f4.

cheesehead · 2013-09-05, 06:38

[QUOTE=WMHalsdorf;351923]I'm looking at Nd1 followed by c3 at the moment there is also f4 and Nge2 to consider. I currently favor f4 over Nge2 with Nf3 and Nd1 better than f4.[/QUOTE]What's the White plan (not just moves, but goals) after each of those?

Nd1 and c3 ...

Nf3 ...

f4 ...

Nge2 ...

WMHalsdorf · 2013-09-05, 13:29

[QUOTE=cheesehead;351975]What's the White plan (not just moves, but goals) after each of those?

Nd1 and c3 ...

Nf3 ...

f4 ...

Nge2 ...[/QUOTE]

goal for Nd1 and c3 is the two fold an early start of a pawn bloclkcade formation starting on b2 to f5 allowing for an attack on the blacks kingside and dealing with a black knight on d4

Nf3 is to deal with a black knight on d4 while making way for O-O

f4 is an early start of an attack on black's kingside ignoring a black knight on d4 for the time being

Nge2 is to deal with a black knight on d4 while making way for O-O and still allowing f4

In a nutshell at some point if a black knight ends up on d4 black has the abilty to open up the center with a slight advantage see the first game.

bsquared · 2013-09-05, 13:31

I admit I don't understand the Nd1 play... I don't see how moving the knight behind the line gains anything, but I can't see very far ahead either.

I like Nf3 to invite the Knight attack and subsequent Knight/bishop exchange.

I'm also considering h4 to further develop the pawn structure on our king side.

LaurV · 2013-09-05, 15:20

Starting with the bitchy part, I don't like Nd1+c3. Too defensive. I did not study it too deep (I will do this in weekend, if we don't decide till then), but I don't see how can we do better than, for example: 8.Nd1 Nf6 9. c3 b5 then what? we still need 10.Nf3 otherwise we may lose the center, and black is strong on the queen's side. Any other move for 10 delays the castling, the horse in D1 is not only locked and doing nothing, but also it closes any posibility for us to castle queen side. We need to defend e5 square, if he plays Nf6, as d4 is already too crowded. They can still push b4 and free that rook, or plant the horse in g4. I know this is "closed" sicilian, but we are too closed and too defensive.

8.f4 Nd4 9.Nf3 this is somehow one mistake done in the former game, Ne7, 10 O-O, Nec6, and black is very aggressive in the center, we have to think if we castle or defend the queen's side. Don't forget that [B]all the sicilian is about is countering white's defense on king side by getting stronger and very aggressive on queen's side. [/B]If black succeed doing this, they win. If we castled, our king is linked with the bishop, if we start exchanging material in center, black wins... (they still can do Qb6 we must defend b2 and they get one more support to already overcrowded d4, with their queen). This is not the best we can do, I think.

8. Nge2 might be interesting, but it gets complicate, this also need more study... (Sunday...)

8. Nf3 this is what I like. After 8..e5 (because we threat to push d4!), 9.Nd5 Nge7 10 Bg5 Be6, 11.Nf6 hehe, and black can't castle anymore... :razz: That is the spirit... 11...Kf8 (taking the horse is worse...) 12. Bh6, tadaaa

WMHalsdorf · 2013-09-05, 17:38

If it's castle early then Nf3 (Nge2 is not always as quick) else if defend queenside then Nd1. I'm comfortable with either choice.

cheesehead · 2013-09-06, 16:42

[QUOTE=bsquared;351996]I admit I don't understand the Nd1 play... I don't see how moving the knight behind the line gains anything, but I can't see very far ahead either.[/QUOTE]One of White's major concerns is that Black will establish a N on d4.

The simplest way to prevent that is with a P on c3 ... but that requires first moving the N that's on c3 now.

Moving the N right now leaves the b2 pawn undefended and liable to capture by Black's g7 bishop ... unless the N move is to d1.

As for it's being "behind the line", White will start a Kingside attack soon, and this N can go to f2 after we advance f5 (or to e3 after that B moves), then later maneuver further up.

This line of the Sicilian is called "Closed" because the center pawn structure tends to remain connected, not opening up. In closed positions, immediately centering a N is not so urgent as in an open position.

In some ways, the Closed Sicilian is similar to the French Defense, with which I'm experienced and comfortable. Both of these openings involve piece maneuvers that would look out-of-place in an open position, but make sense in the closed context.

[QUOTE=LaurV;352006]Starting with the bitchy part, I don't like Nd1+c3. Too defensive.[/QUOTE]But this is to stabilize the center in order to carry out a Kingside attack! A closed position like this (or French Defense) can look deceptively "defensive" if one is unfamiliar with it, when actually it's preparing for a strong attack.

[quote]I did not study it too deep (I will do this in weekend, if we don't decide till then), but I don't see how can we do better than, for example: 8.Nd1 Nf6 9. c3 b5 then what?[/quote]Then, for instance, we can think about Bh6 to exchange the strong Black bishop and leave Black's Kingside with weak black squares - a drafty castle.

[quote]we still need 10.Nf3 otherwise we may lose the center,[/quote]So, we can do that when the time comes.

[quote]black is strong on the queen's side.[/quote]But that's not where our King is going to be! :-)

[quote]Any other move for 10 delays the castling, the horse in D1 is not only locked and doing nothing,[/quote]but only temporarily

[quote]but also it closes any posibility for us to castle queen side.[/quote]R-i-i-g-h-t ... you want us to castle smack dab into where Black's rook and bishop are already pointing? I don't think so.

A Black attack on the Q-side will not be as immediately threatening to the opposing King as a White attack on the K-side will be.

[quote]We need to defend e5 square, if he plays Nf6,[/quote]I don't understand. We have nothing on the e5 square, so we will be attacking it, not defending it -- and f4 will do that nicely.

[quote]as d4 is already too crowded.[/quote]But our c3 will prevent it from being too crowded in the near future.

[quote]They can still push b4 and free that rook,[/quote]So? Let them. That'll be out in the "boondocks". We can't prevent everything, so we concentrate on squares that have the most value to us - center and K-side.

[quote]or plant the horse in g4.[/quote]... in order to waste a tempo moving it back after h3???

[quote]I know this is "closed" sicilian, but we are too closed and too defensive.[/quote]We are soundly preparing our attack. Try looking at the board from the Black side - isn't that "defensive" for our opponent, on the K-side?

I think you're too concerned with trying to be strong everywhere at once. Can't do that. You have to pick what you're going to attack (K-side for us), and what won't make so much difference (the Q-side).

cheesehead · 2013-09-06, 16:45

[QUOTE=LaurV;352006]8.f4 Nd4 9.Nf3 this is somehow one mistake done in the former game, Ne7, 10 O-O, Nec6, and black is very aggressive in the center,[/QUOTE]... but that's what c3 prevents.

- - -

My current ranking is:

Nd1 - 5

Nge2 - 3

f4 - 3

Nf3 - 2

LaurV · 2013-09-06, 18:01

I understand everything you say (you are very good in explaining it, did you or are you still playing competitional chess?) and agree, except the part with "waste a tempo moving it back after h3", the intention for Ng4 is to weaken our defense to d4, that is, he will exchange it for bishop in e3, if we chose this path and they reply Ng4, moving h3 is somehow a wasted move. His intention in this case would be to sacrifice the horse, not to retreat it.

I still have to think about, for my final vote. I am counting on a "free and relaxing" Sunday afternoon...

In fact it was meant to look into Nge2, but if both of you are "pressing" with Nd1, then I will look deeper into it too. You both look like you know what you are talking about... :smile:

About "you're too concerned with trying to be strong everywhere at once", this is what my boss is telling me for ages, hehe, he would like me to write crap software, send it out to the customers, so he could charge them and take the money, because the customer "will have anyhow something to comment or to change", and we gain time, anyhow "you can't make the perfect product" from first trial... He always says that the customer is happier if we give them products with small bugs, in time, than if we give them perfect products with delays... (somehow he is right, I know... but well... I like perfect products...)

WMHalsdorf · 2013-09-06, 20:23

The response to Nf6 is Bh6

2013-09-04, 16:44	#1
LaurV Romulan Interpreter "name field" Jun 2011 Thailand 10291₁₀ Posts	White 08 I would definitively play Nf3 here... :w00t: But of course, we are open to debates...

2013-09-05, 15:20	#6
LaurV Romulan Interpreter "name field" Jun 2011 Thailand 10100000110011₂ Posts	Starting with the bitchy part, I don't like Nd1+c3. Too defensive. I did not study it too deep (I will do this in weekend, if we don't decide till then), but I don't see how can we do better than, for example: 8.Nd1 Nf6 9. c3 b5 then what? we still need 10.Nf3 otherwise we may lose the center, and black is strong on the queen's side. Any other move for 10 delays the castling, the horse in D1 is not only locked and doing nothing, but also it closes any posibility for us to castle queen side. We need to defend e5 square, if he plays Nf6, as d4 is already too crowded. They can still push b4 and free that rook, or plant the horse in g4. I know this is "closed" sicilian, but we are too closed and too defensive. 8.f4 Nd4 9.Nf3 this is somehow one mistake done in the former game, Ne7, 10 O-O, Nec6, and black is very aggressive in the center, we have to think if we castle or defend the queen's side. Don't forget that [B]all the sicilian is about is countering white's defense on king side by getting stronger and very aggressive on queen's side. [/B]If black succeed doing this, they win. If we castled, our king is linked with the bishop, if we start exchanging material in center, black wins... (they still can do Qb6 we must defend b2 and they get one more support to already overcrowded d4, with their queen). This is not the best we can do, I think. 8. Nge2 might be interesting, but it gets complicate, this also need more study... (Sunday...) 8. Nf3 this is what I like. After 8..e5 (because we threat to push d4!), 9.Nd5 Nge7 10 Bg5 Be6, 11.Nf6 hehe, and black can't castle anymore... :razz: That is the spirit... 11...Kf8 (taking the horse is worse...) 12. Bh6, tadaaa Last fiddled with by LaurV on 2013-09-05 at 15:32

2013-09-06, 16:42	#8
cheesehead "Richard B. Woods" Aug 2002 Wisconsin USA 2²×3×641 Posts	[QUOTE=bsquared;351996]I admit I don't understand the Nd1 play... I don't see how moving the knight behind the line gains anything, but I can't see very far ahead either.[/QUOTE]One of White's major concerns is that Black will establish a N on d4. The simplest way to prevent that is with a P on c3 ... but that requires first moving the N that's on c3 now. Moving the N right now leaves the b2 pawn undefended and liable to capture by Black's g7 bishop ... unless the N move is to d1. As for it's being "behind the line", White will start a Kingside attack soon, and this N can go to f2 after we advance f5 (or to e3 after that B moves), then later maneuver further up. This line of the Sicilian is called "Closed" because the center pawn structure tends to remain connected, not opening up. In closed positions, immediately centering a N is not so urgent as in an open position. In some ways, the Closed Sicilian is similar to the French Defense, with which I'm experienced and comfortable. Both of these openings involve piece maneuvers that would look out-of-place in an open position, but make sense in the closed context. [QUOTE=LaurV;352006]Starting with the bitchy part, I don't like Nd1+c3. Too defensive.[/QUOTE]But this is to stabilize the center in order to carry out a Kingside attack! A closed position like this (or French Defense) can look deceptively "defensive" if one is unfamiliar with it, when actually it's preparing for a strong attack. [quote]I did not study it too deep (I will do this in weekend, if we don't decide till then), but I don't see how can we do better than, for example: 8.Nd1 Nf6 9. c3 b5 then what?[/quote]Then, for instance, we can think about Bh6 to exchange the strong Black bishop and leave Black's Kingside with weak black squares - a drafty castle. [quote]we still need 10.Nf3 otherwise we may lose the center,[/quote]So, we can do that when the time comes. [quote]black is strong on the queen's side.[/quote]But that's not where our King is going to be! :-) [quote]Any other move for 10 delays the castling, the horse in D1 is not only locked and doing nothing,[/quote]but only temporarily [quote]but also it closes any posibility for us to castle queen side.[/quote]R-i-i-g-h-t ... you want us to castle smack dab into where Black's rook and bishop are already pointing? I don't think so. A Black attack on the Q-side will not be as immediately threatening to the opposing King as a White attack on the K-side will be. [quote]We need to defend e5 square, if he plays Nf6,[/quote]I don't understand. We have nothing on the e5 square, so we will be attacking it, not defending it -- and f4 will do that nicely. [quote]as d4 is already too crowded.[/quote]But our c3 will prevent it from being too crowded in the near future. [quote]They can still push b4 and free that rook,[/quote]So? Let them. That'll be out in the "boondocks". We can't prevent everything, so we concentrate on squares that have the most value to us - center and K-side. [quote]or plant the horse in g4.[/quote]... in order to waste a tempo moving it back after h3??? [quote]I know this is "closed" sicilian, but we are too closed and too defensive.[/quote]We are soundly preparing our attack. Try looking at the board from the Black side - isn't that "defensive" for our opponent, on the K-side? I think you're too concerned with trying to be strong everywhere at once. Can't do that. You have to pick what you're going to attack (K-side for us), and what won't make so much difference (the Q-side). Last fiddled with by cheesehead on 2013-09-06 at 16:43

2013-09-06, 16:45	#9
cheesehead "Richard B. Woods" Aug 2002 Wisconsin USA 2²×3×641 Posts	[QUOTE=LaurV;352006]8.f4 Nd4 9.Nf3 this is somehow one mistake done in the former game, Ne7, 10 O-O, Nec6, and black is very aggressive in the center,[/QUOTE]... but that's what c3 prevents. - - - My current ranking is: Nd1 - 5 Nge2 - 3 f4 - 3 Nf3 - 2 Last fiddled with by cheesehead on 2013-09-06 at 16:52

2013-09-06, 18:01	#10
LaurV Romulan Interpreter "name field" Jun 2011 Thailand 41×251 Posts	I understand everything you say (you are very good in explaining it, did you or are you still playing competitional chess?) and agree, except the part with "waste a tempo moving it back after h3", the intention for Ng4 is to weaken our defense to d4, that is, he will exchange it for bishop in e3, if we chose this path and they reply Ng4, moving h3 is somehow a wasted move. His intention in this case would be to sacrifice the horse, not to retreat it. I still have to think about, for my final vote. I am counting on a "free and relaxing" Sunday afternoon... In fact it was meant to look into Nge2, but if both of you are "pressing" with Nd1, then I will look deeper into it too. You both look like you know what you are talking about... :smile: About "you're too concerned with trying to be strong everywhere at once", this is what my boss is telling me for ages, hehe, he would like me to write crap software, send it out to the customers, so he could charge them and take the money, because the customer "will have anyhow something to comment or to change", and we gain time, anyhow "you can't make the perfect product" from first trial... He always says that the customer is happier if we give them products with small bugs, in time, than if we give them perfect products with delays... (somehow he is right, I know... but well... I like perfect products...) Last fiddled with by LaurV on 2013-09-06 at 18:13

2013-09-04, 19:05	#2
WMHalsdorf Feb 2005 Bristol, CT 513₁₀ Posts	I'm looking at Nd1 followed by c3 at the moment there is also f4 and Nge2 to consider. I currently favor f4 over Nge2 with Nf3 and Nd1 better than f4.

2013-09-05, 06:38	#3
cheesehead "Richard B. Woods" Aug 2002 Wisconsin USA 2²·3·641 Posts	[QUOTE=WMHalsdorf;351923]I'm looking at Nd1 followed by c3 at the moment there is also f4 and Nge2 to consider. I currently favor f4 over Nge2 with Nf3 and Nd1 better than f4.[/QUOTE]What's the White plan (not just moves, but goals) after each of those? Nd1 and c3 ... Nf3 ... f4 ... Nge2 ...

2013-09-05, 13:29	#4
WMHalsdorf Feb 2005 Bristol, CT 1000000001₂ Posts	[QUOTE=cheesehead;351975]What's the White plan (not just moves, but goals) after each of those? Nd1 and c3 ... Nf3 ... f4 ... Nge2 ...[/QUOTE] goal for Nd1 and c3 is the two fold an early start of a pawn bloclkcade formation starting on b2 to f5 allowing for an attack on the blacks kingside and dealing with a black knight on d4 Nf3 is to deal with a black knight on d4 while making way for O-O f4 is an early start of an attack on black's kingside ignoring a black knight on d4 for the time being Nge2 is to deal with a black knight on d4 while making way for O-O and still allowing f4 In a nutshell at some point if a black knight ends up on d4 black has the abilty to open up the center with a slight advantage see the first game.

2013-09-05, 13:31	#5
bsquared "Ben" Feb 2007 3·5·251 Posts	I admit I don't understand the Nd1 play... I don't see how moving the knight behind the line gains anything, but I can't see very far ahead either. I like Nf3 to invite the Knight attack and subsequent Knight/bishop exchange. I'm also considering h4 to further develop the pawn structure on our king side.

2013-09-05, 17:38	#7
WMHalsdorf Feb 2005 Bristol, CT 1000000001₂ Posts	If it's castle early then Nf3 (Nge2 is not always as quick) else if defend queenside then Nd1. I'm comfortable with either choice.

2013-09-06, 20:23	#11
WMHalsdorf Feb 2005 Bristol, CT 3³×19 Posts	The response to Nf6 is Bh6

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