White 04

WMHalsdorf · 2013-08-12, 23:57

Have we waited long enough to reply with Bg2 or do we wait another day?

LaurV · 2013-08-13, 03:10

[QUOTE=WMHalsdorf;349326]Have we waited long enough to reply with Bg2 or do we wait another day?[/QUOTE]
Haha! ok, ok, I agree with bg2, but let's see what other people say.

cheesehead · 2013-08-13, 17:40

I nominate 4. d3 (with Bg2 later). Looks to me like Black may have slightly more chance to err that way than in the more conventional order.

LaurV · 2013-08-15, 16:38

Sounds reasonable, and for me it looks the same whichever of the two moves we do now. Let's say however that I like Bg2 a bit more (no surprises, in case they don't move the bishop now).

We have one vote for d3 (cheesehead) and one for Bg2 (WMHalsdorf), for me any of them is good.

Ben, What do you think? (Let BB decide and blame him if something wrong :evil: hehe).

As the timeout is Aug 19, I will post Bg2 on Sunday 18 (my Sunday, which for some of you might be Saturday 17), if no reply from BB.

cheesehead · 2013-08-15, 22:11

If it looks the same, why don't you choose 4 d3 (with Bg2 later)?

I've given a reason for superiority of 4 d3 (intending later Bg2): The less-conventional move order gives Black more chance to go wrong than the more common order. 4 d3 does nothing to interfere with a later Bg2.

No one's given any reason for superiority of 4 Bg2 over moving 4 d3 first.

LaurV · 2013-08-16, 13:10

The reason was exactly given: what if they don't move the bishop? I also said that I like Bg2 a bit more, so now the voting is 1.51 against 1.49, hehe. (just teasing you). If it is such a big problem, let's play d3. Who cares? (for me they really look the same, but I already played Bg2 in the former game, and I saw - from the black's perspective or point of view - that black can't do too much here, except playing by the book).

cheesehead · 2013-08-16, 18:10

[QUOTE=LaurV;349795]The reason was exactly given: what if they don't move the bishop?[/QUOTE]What if they don't? What is the feared Black alternative that forces White to an immediate Bg2? What else would they do that isn't inferior to 4... Bg7 after 4 d3?

If we're going to play Bg2 in the not-too-distant future anyway, 4 d3 doesn't prevent that, and prepares for Be3 to begin contesting the black squares.

ECO (B24, line 3) doesn't even give an alternative to 4... Bg7 after 4 d3, and every continuation given from there is += or even for White, with more += possibilities than in the conventional move order.

WMHalsdorf · 2013-08-16, 18:48

There actually several move that black can make in response to 4. d3
4.... d3 , 4... Nf6 and 4.... Bg7. One the most import things to rember is that ECO is a guide not a bible. There are several books on the Closed Sicilian including some that just cover a single variation.

LaurV · 2013-08-17, 05:24

[QUOTE=WMHalsdorf;349831]4.... d3 , 4... Nf6 and 4.... Bg7[/QUOTE]
I assume you wanted to say d6, or d5, or e5, but I consider e5 a weak move for black in this stage, because then we can plant our horse between the pawns and black can't hush it off easy. Also, with d5 he gave us a pawn for free, so I assume you said d6. Somehow, black need to keep the e pawn behind, otherwise our horse gets to d5 and even if he beats is with a horse or bishop (if pawn already passed to e5), after white pawn exd5 and white c4, we won the center, undebatable. Therefore, indeed, Bg7 seems their only reasonable response now, even if we move d3 or Bg2.

Anyhow, both of you confused me more now: 4.Bg2, or 4.d3? :w00t:
Maybe BB can help us, otherwise I will flip a coin... (sincerely!). (or one of you give up :razz:)

WMHalsdorf · 2013-08-17, 05:59

It's 4... d6 to which we have two replies 5. Be3 and 5. Bg2, it's the 4... Nf6 the concerns me.

cheesehead · 2013-08-17, 06:44

[QUOTE=WMHalsdorf;349831]There actually several move that black can make in response to 4. d3
4.... [strike]d3[/strike] d6 , 4... Nf6 and 4.... Bg7.[/QUOTE]That's what I want: discussion of possibilities and pros/cons.

[quote]One the most import things to rember is that ECO is a guide not a bible.[/quote]Of course ... [quote]There are several books on the Closed Sicilian including some that just cover a single variation.[/quote]... but I have none of those.

[QUOTE=WMHalsdorf;349904]It's 4... d6 to which we have two replies 5. Be3 and 5. Bg2, it's the 4... Nf6 the concerns me.[/QUOTE]Reasons for concern after 4 d3 Nf6 are __?

2013-08-12, 23:57	#1
WMHalsdorf Feb 2005 Bristol, CT 3³×19 Posts	White 04 Have we waited long enough to reply with Bg2 or do we wait another day?

2013-08-16, 13:10	#6
LaurV Romulan Interpreter "name field" Jun 2011 Thailand 2833₁₆ Posts	The reason was exactly given: what if they don't move the bishop? I also said that I like Bg2 a bit more, so now the voting is 1.51 against 1.49, hehe. (just teasing you). If it is such a big problem, let's play d3. Who cares? (for me they really look the same, but I already played Bg2 in the former game, and I saw - from the black's perspective or point of view - that black can't do too much here, except playing by the book). Last fiddled with by LaurV on 2013-08-16 at 13:11

2013-08-16, 18:10	#7
cheesehead "Richard B. Woods" Aug 2002 Wisconsin USA 1111000001100₂ Posts	[QUOTE=LaurV;349795]The reason was exactly given: what if they don't move the bishop?[/QUOTE]What if they don't? What is the feared Black alternative that forces White to an immediate Bg2? What else would they do that isn't inferior to 4... Bg7 after 4 d3? If we're going to play Bg2 in the not-too-distant future anyway, 4 d3 doesn't prevent that, and prepares for Be3 to begin contesting the black squares. ECO (B24, line 3) doesn't even give an alternative to 4... Bg7 after 4 d3, and every continuation given from there is += or even for White, with more += possibilities than in the conventional move order. Last fiddled with by cheesehead on 2013-08-16 at 18:15

2013-08-16, 18:48	#8
WMHalsdorf Feb 2005 Bristol, CT 1001₈ Posts	There actually several move that black can make in response to 4. d3 4.... d3 , 4... Nf6 and 4.... Bg7. One the most import things to rember is that ECO is a guide not a bible. There are several books on the Closed Sicilian including some that just cover a single variation. Last fiddled with by WMHalsdorf on 2013-08-16 at 18:51 Reason: additional information

2013-08-17, 06:44	#11
cheesehead "Richard B. Woods" Aug 2002 Wisconsin USA 2²·3·641 Posts	[QUOTE=WMHalsdorf;349831]There actually several move that black can make in response to 4. d3 4.... [strike]d3[/strike] d6 , 4... Nf6 and 4.... Bg7.[/QUOTE]That's what I want: discussion of possibilities and pros/cons. [quote]One the most import things to rember is that ECO is a guide not a bible.[/quote]Of course ... [quote]There are several books on the Closed Sicilian including some that just cover a single variation.[/quote]... but I have none of those. [QUOTE=WMHalsdorf;349904]It's 4... d6 to which we have two replies 5. Be3 and 5. Bg2, it's the 4... Nf6 the concerns me.[/QUOTE]Reasons for concern after 4 d3 Nf6 are __? Last fiddled with by cheesehead on 2013-08-17 at 06:50

2013-08-13, 03:10	#2
LaurV Romulan Interpreter "name field" Jun 2011 Thailand 41·251 Posts	[QUOTE=WMHalsdorf;349326]Have we waited long enough to reply with Bg2 or do we wait another day?[/QUOTE] Haha! ok, ok, I agree with bg2, but let's see what other people say.

2013-08-13, 17:40	#3
cheesehead "Richard B. Woods" Aug 2002 Wisconsin USA 1E0C₁₆ Posts	I nominate 4. d3 (with Bg2 later). Looks to me like Black may have slightly more chance to err that way than in the more conventional order.

2013-08-15, 16:38	#4
LaurV Romulan Interpreter "name field" Jun 2011 Thailand 41×251 Posts	Sounds reasonable, and for me it looks the same whichever of the two moves we do now. Let's say however that I like Bg2 a bit more (no surprises, in case they don't move the bishop now). We have one vote for d3 (cheesehead) and one for Bg2 (WMHalsdorf), for me any of them is good. Ben, What do you think? (Let BB decide and blame him if something wrong :evil: hehe). As the timeout is Aug 19, I will post Bg2 on Sunday 18 (my Sunday, which for some of you might be Saturday 17), if no reply from BB.

2013-08-15, 22:11	#5
cheesehead "Richard B. Woods" Aug 2002 Wisconsin USA 2²·3·641 Posts	If it looks the same, why don't you choose 4 d3 (with Bg2 later)? I've given a reason for superiority of 4 d3 (intending later Bg2): The less-conventional move order gives Black more chance to go wrong than the more common order. 4 d3 does nothing to interfere with a later Bg2. No one's given any reason for superiority of 4 Bg2 over moving 4 d3 first.

2013-08-17, 05:24	#9
LaurV Romulan Interpreter "name field" Jun 2011 Thailand 41·251 Posts	[QUOTE=WMHalsdorf;349831]4.... d3 , 4... Nf6 and 4.... Bg7[/QUOTE] I assume you wanted to say d6, or d5, or e5, but I consider e5 a weak move for black in this stage, because then we can plant our horse between the pawns and black can't hush it off easy. Also, with d5 he gave us a pawn for free, so I assume you said d6. Somehow, black need to keep the e pawn behind, otherwise our horse gets to d5 and even if he beats is with a horse or bishop (if pawn already passed to e5), after white pawn exd5 and white c4, we won the center, undebatable. Therefore, indeed, Bg7 seems their only reasonable response now, even if we move d3 or Bg2. Anyhow, both of you confused me more now: 4.Bg2, or 4.d3? :w00t: Maybe BB can help us, otherwise I will flip a coin... (sincerely!). (or one of you give up :razz:)

2013-08-17, 05:59	#10
WMHalsdorf Feb 2005 Bristol, CT 3³·19 Posts	It's 4... d6 to which we have two replies 5. Be3 and 5. Bg2, it's the 4... Nf6 the concerns me.

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