Move 26

Brian-E · 2013-04-19, 09:00

I'll try to summarize what we were analysing last move.

The threat from the f pawn can be dealt with either by marching the king forward to f3 and capturing it, or by manoeuvring the knight to f3 and blockading it.

Zeta-Flux analyses some lines at the end of the last thread where we play 26.Kf3 and 27.Nxf4, but Black plays ...Bf5, ...Be5 (forcing our knight off f4) and ...Bxe4 double check forcing our king to recapture on e4 and looking bad for us.

The route of the knight to f3 via 26.Nd4 was felt to lead to disaster after Zeta-Flux' line
[QUOTE]25. Kg2 exf4 26. Nd4 Bxd4 27. cxd4 Rxd4 28. Bxg6 f3+ 29. Kf2 Bg4 30. Bxh7+ Kh8 31. Qc3 pinning the rook, but not for long, and I think they can pull out a win.[/QUOTE]But 26.Ng1 manoeuvring to f3 has not been definitively refuted as far as I can see. It is my personal preference at the moment.

Other possible moves which occur to me now, but which we did not discuss, are 26.b3 (getting on with activating the queen on the queenside and waiting for them to play ...Bg4 before we commit our blockading knight), or 26.h3 to stop ...Bg4.

Obviously please correct and expand on this ridiculously brief summary of a lot of hard work which everyone did last move!

henryzz · 2013-04-20, 10:45

I don't think that 26. b3 is possible for us yet.
26. b3 f3+ 27. Bxf3 Rd3 28. Ng1 Rfxf3 29. Nxf3 Bb7 30. Kg1 Bxf3
I can't see any way out of that.
We need a move that stops f3+(or at least stops the check) before we can follow that route.
26. Kf3 ??? 27. b3 doesn't look too shabby to me.
26. Ng1 Rf7 27. b3 doesn't look so good to me. Our knight is no longer defending the c3 pawn. I reckon they have more power on the f file.

Brian-E · 2013-04-20, 14:14

[QUOTE=henryzz;337685]I don't think that 26. b3 is possible for us yet.
26. b3 f3+ 27. Bxf3 Rd3 28. Ng1 Rfxf3 29. Nxf3 Bb7 30. Kg1 Bxf3
I can't see any way out of that.[/QUOTE]
28.Be4 looks alright to me here, but I'm playing devil's advocate now because I don't really want to play 26.b3 either.

[QUOTE]We need a move that stops f3+(or at least stops the check) before we can follow that route.
26. Kf3 ??? 27. b3 doesn't look too shabby to me.[/QUOTE]Right, and not capturing on f4 for the moment, since Zeta-Flux showed at the end of the last thread that doing so leads to trouble. Yes, this might be a good idea. Worth examining further!

[QUOTE]26. Ng1 Rf7 27. b3 doesn't look so good to me. Our knight is no longer defending the c3 pawn. I reckon they have more power on the f file.[/QUOTE]I agree that if we manoeuvre the knight to f3 then we perhaps should not play b3 for the moment. The c3 pawn will indeed be vulnerable. But from a purely positional point of view, I do still like 26.Ng1 to be followed by Nf3. On f3 the knight blockades the pawn securely and also controls the important square d2 on which Black may invade with rooks.

henryzz · 2013-04-20, 14:39

[QUOTE=Brian-E;337694]28.Be4 looks alright to me here, but I'm playing devil's advocate now because I don't really want to play 26.b3 either.
[/quote]
[COLOR=red][COLOR=black]28. Be4 Bh3+ 29. Kh1 Rf1+ 30. Ng1 Rdd1[/COLOR][/COLOR]
Devil's advocacy is sometimes necessary in chess. Otherwise you can miss things.

Brian-E · 2013-04-20, 16:56

[QUOTE=henryzz;337698][COLOR=red][COLOR=black]28. Be4 Bh3+ 29. Kh1 Rf1+ 30. Ng1 Rdd1[/COLOR][/COLOR]
Devil's advocacy is sometimes necessary in chess. Otherwise you can miss things.[/QUOTE]
Yes, I missed that.
In that case I agree with you that we don't even need to consider any move (such as 26.b3) which fails to deal with the immediate threat of ...f3+.

Brian-E · 2013-04-21, 17:11

If we place our king on f3 rather than our knight, the response I most fear is doubling rooks on the d file, playing ...Be6 in response to b3 so that bxc4 is answered by ...Bxc4, and invading with the rooks on d2 and/or d1.

For example 26.Kf3 Rd6 27.b3 Be6 and I don't see what we can constructively do whereas Black is ready to play ...Rfd8 (possibly prefaced by ...Be5 and ...Kg7), ...Rd1, ...R8d2.

henryzz · 2013-04-21, 17:26

There is also a4 to think about. They are pretty much forced to do a6 in response IMO.

Brian-E · 2013-04-21, 17:38

[QUOTE=henryzz;337800]There is also a4 to think about. They are pretty much forced to do a6 in response IMO.[/QUOTE]
Yes, a4 will always be answered by ...a6. What does it achieve for us?

henryzz · 2013-04-21, 17:42

[QUOTE=Brian-E;337801]Yes, a4 will always be answered by ...a6. What does it achieve for us?[/QUOTE]
Does doing 27. a4 a6 28. axb5 axb5 29. b3 have any advantage over 27. b3? I am not sure we can really get our queen out on that side.

Brian-E · 2013-04-21, 17:49

[QUOTE=henryzz;337802]Does doing 27. a4 a6 28. axb5 axb5 29. b3 have any advantage over 27. b3? I am not sure we can really get our queen out on that side.[/QUOTE]
Just for clarity, we're talking about this after the play 26.Kf3 Rd6 as I understand it.
I think this is worse than if we don't play a4, because after 29...Be6 they are additionally threatening ...cxb3 as well as the invasion on d1/d2.
I agree that activating our queen on the queenside is going to be too slow here.

Brian-E · 2013-04-22, 16:46

Rich and Pace, are you both around as well? Please let's hear your views while we still have time to discuss them!

2013-04-19, 09:00	#1
Brian-E "Brian" Jul 2007 The Netherlands 2·11·149 Posts	Move 26 I'll try to summarize what we were analysing last move. The threat from the f pawn can be dealt with either by marching the king forward to f3 and capturing it, or by manoeuvring the knight to f3 and blockading it. Zeta-Flux analyses some lines at the end of the last thread where we play 26.Kf3 and 27.Nxf4, but Black plays ...Bf5, ...Be5 (forcing our knight off f4) and ...Bxe4 double check forcing our king to recapture on e4 and looking bad for us. The route of the knight to f3 via 26.Nd4 was felt to lead to disaster after Zeta-Flux' line [QUOTE]25. Kg2 exf4 26. Nd4 Bxd4 27. cxd4 Rxd4 28. Bxg6 f3+ 29. Kf2 Bg4 30. Bxh7+ Kh8 31. Qc3 pinning the rook, but not for long, and I think they can pull out a win.[/QUOTE]But 26.Ng1 manoeuvring to f3 has not been definitively refuted as far as I can see. It is my personal preference at the moment. Other possible moves which occur to me now, but which we did not discuss, are 26.b3 (getting on with activating the queen on the queenside and waiting for them to play ...Bg4 before we commit our blockading knight), or 26.h3 to stop ...Bg4. Obviously please correct and expand on this ridiculously brief summary of a lot of hard work which everyone did last move! Last fiddled with by Brian-E on 2013-04-19 at 09:02

2013-04-20, 14:14	#3
Brian-E "Brian" Jul 2007 The Netherlands 2·11·149 Posts	[QUOTE=henryzz;337685]I don't think that 26. b3 is possible for us yet. 26. b3 f3+ 27. Bxf3 Rd3 28. Ng1 Rfxf3 29. Nxf3 Bb7 30. Kg1 Bxf3 I can't see any way out of that.[/QUOTE] 28.Be4 looks alright to me here, but I'm playing devil's advocate now because I don't really want to play 26.b3 either. [QUOTE]We need a move that stops f3+(or at least stops the check) before we can follow that route. 26. Kf3 ??? 27. b3 doesn't look too shabby to me.[/QUOTE]Right, and not capturing on f4 for the moment, since Zeta-Flux showed at the end of the last thread that doing so leads to trouble. Yes, this might be a good idea. Worth examining further! [QUOTE]26. Ng1 Rf7 27. b3 doesn't look so good to me. Our knight is no longer defending the c3 pawn. I reckon they have more power on the f file.[/QUOTE]I agree that if we manoeuvre the knight to f3 then we perhaps should not play b3 for the moment. The c3 pawn will indeed be vulnerable. But from a purely positional point of view, I do still like 26.Ng1 to be followed by Nf3. On f3 the knight blockades the pawn securely and also controls the important square d2 on which Black may invade with rooks. Last fiddled with by Brian-E on 2013-04-20 at 14:16

2013-04-21, 17:11	#6
Brian-E "Brian" Jul 2007 The Netherlands 3278₁₀ Posts	If we place our king on f3 rather than our knight, the response I most fear is doubling rooks on the d file, playing ...Be6 in response to b3 so that bxc4 is answered by ...Bxc4, and invading with the rooks on d2 and/or d1. For example 26.Kf3 Rd6 27.b3 Be6 and I don't see what we can constructively do whereas Black is ready to play ...Rfd8 (possibly prefaced by ...Be5 and ...Kg7), ...Rd1, ...R8d2. Last fiddled with by Brian-E on 2013-04-21 at 17:14

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2013-04-20, 10:45	#2
henryzz Just call me Henry "David" Sep 2007 Liverpool (GMT/BST) 3·23·89 Posts	I don't think that 26. b3 is possible for us yet. 26. b3 f3+ 27. Bxf3 Rd3 28. Ng1 Rfxf3 29. Nxf3 Bb7 30. Kg1 Bxf3 I can't see any way out of that. We need a move that stops f3+(or at least stops the check) before we can follow that route. 26. Kf3 ??? 27. b3 doesn't look too shabby to me. 26. Ng1 Rf7 27. b3 doesn't look so good to me. Our knight is no longer defending the c3 pawn. I reckon they have more power on the f file.

2013-04-20, 14:39	#4
henryzz Just call me Henry "David" Sep 2007 Liverpool (GMT/BST) 17FD₁₆ Posts	[QUOTE=Brian-E;337694]28.Be4 looks alright to me here, but I'm playing devil's advocate now because I don't really want to play 26.b3 either. [/quote] [COLOR=red][COLOR=black]28. Be4 Bh3+ 29. Kh1 Rf1+ 30. Ng1 Rdd1[/COLOR][/COLOR] Devil's advocacy is sometimes necessary in chess. Otherwise you can miss things.

2013-04-20, 16:56	#5
Brian-E "Brian" Jul 2007 The Netherlands 2·11·149 Posts	[QUOTE=henryzz;337698][COLOR=red][COLOR=black]28. Be4 Bh3+ 29. Kh1 Rf1+ 30. Ng1 Rdd1[/COLOR][/COLOR] Devil's advocacy is sometimes necessary in chess. Otherwise you can miss things.[/QUOTE] Yes, I missed that. In that case I agree with you that we don't even need to consider any move (such as 26.b3) which fails to deal with the immediate threat of ...f3+.

2013-04-21, 17:26	#7
henryzz Just call me Henry "David" Sep 2007 Liverpool (GMT/BST) 13775₈ Posts	There is also a4 to think about. They are pretty much forced to do a6 in response IMO.

2013-04-21, 17:38	#8
Brian-E "Brian" Jul 2007 The Netherlands 2·11·149 Posts	[QUOTE=henryzz;337800]There is also a4 to think about. They are pretty much forced to do a6 in response IMO.[/QUOTE] Yes, a4 will always be answered by ...a6. What does it achieve for us?

2013-04-21, 17:42	#9
henryzz Just call me Henry "David" Sep 2007 Liverpool (GMT/BST) 3·23·89 Posts	[QUOTE=Brian-E;337801]Yes, a4 will always be answered by ...a6. What does it achieve for us?[/QUOTE] Does doing 27. a4 a6 28. axb5 axb5 29. b3 have any advantage over 27. b3? I am not sure we can really get our queen out on that side.

2013-04-21, 17:49	#10
Brian-E "Brian" Jul 2007 The Netherlands 3278₁₀ Posts	[QUOTE=henryzz;337802]Does doing 27. a4 a6 28. axb5 axb5 29. b3 have any advantage over 27. b3? I am not sure we can really get our queen out on that side.[/QUOTE] Just for clarity, we're talking about this after the play 26.Kf3 Rd6 as I understand it. I think this is worse than if we don't play a4, because after 29...Be6 they are additionally threatening ...cxb3 as well as the invasion on d1/d2. I agree that activating our queen on the queenside is going to be too slow here.

2013-04-22, 16:46	#11
Brian-E "Brian" Jul 2007 The Netherlands 2×11×149 Posts	Rich and Pace, are you both around as well? Please let's hear your views while we still have time to discuss them!