4≈24 - Page 2

LaurV · 2013-03-26, 04:03

This is one move for which I could find no clear win. The other was Kf2.
I hoped they would move Raman's Bf3, because that is a black win (indeed our best response would be Bf5, which leads to black win). But it wasn't to be...

I am still thinking about the best answer for this move. There are many continuations possible here. That is why is so difficult to find a win, in spite of our material advantage.

Indeed, b5 is a possibility, as SM88 said. It is not a bad move.
Others are Bg4, Bf5, exf4, a6, and even if we move the king in the corner, Kh8, to get out of the link with the pawn in c4 (in case he takes it, we are not delayed by a check).

Complicated stuff...

Raman · 2013-03-26, 04:10

:exclaim:24...exf4:question: Why so thus?

Dubslow · 2013-03-26, 04:18

There are certainly a myriad of possibilities here. I don't like exf4, it's an awkward structure.

Getting the white bishop in action of shoring up our pawn line are both perfectly reasonable plans.

Hmm...

Raman · 2013-03-26, 06:50

[COLOR=Black][QUOTE=Dubslow;334981]There are certainly a myriad of possibilities here. I don't like exf4, it's an awkward structure.

Getting the white bishop in action of shoring up our pawn line are both perfectly reasonable plans.[/QUOTE][/COLOR][QUOTE=Dubslow;334981][COLOR=Black]

Hmm...[/COLOR][/QUOTE][COLOR=Black] [COLOR=White] r r[/COLOR][/COLOR]
[COLOR=Black] Whether if in case not [COLOR=RoyalBlue][U]24...exf4[/U][/COLOR][/COLOR][COLOR=Black] [COLOR=White] r r[/COLOR][/COLOR][COLOR=Black]
and then may be that [COLOR=Magenta][B]24...b5[/B][/COLOR] might be good enough[/COLOR][COLOR=Black] [COLOR=White] r r[/COLOR][/COLOR][COLOR=Black] [COLOR=Yellow]24...Bf5[/COLOR][/COLOR][COLOR=Black] [COLOR=White] r r[/COLOR][/COLOR]
[COLOR=Black][COLOR=White]done[/COLOR] [/COLOR][COLOR=Black] [COLOR=White]r r [COLOR=Black]tempting[/COLOR][/COLOR][/COLOR][COLOR=Black] [/COLOR][COLOR=Black][COLOR=White]r r [COLOR=Black]move[/COLOR][/COLOR][/COLOR][COLOR=Black] [/COLOR][COLOR=Black][COLOR=White]r r [/COLOR][/COLOR][COLOR=Black]line [/COLOR][COLOR=Black][COLOR=White]r r [/COLOR]
in order to [COLOR=White]r r [/COLOR]
[/COLOR][COLOR=Black]to be being played out off [/COLOR][COLOR=Black][COLOR=White]r r [/COLOR] [COLOR=Lime]away[/COLOR] [/COLOR][COLOR=Black][COLOR=White]r r [/COLOR]
[COLOR=White]r r [/COLOR]
for the side game [COLOR=White]r r[/COLOR]
for this thing and then stuff [COLOR=White]r r[/COLOR]
for the protecting coverage[/COLOR][COLOR=Black] [COLOR=White]r r[/COLOR] [/COLOR][COLOR=Black][COLOR=DarkOrange][I]that light coloured square a4[/I][/COLOR] [COLOR=White]r r[/COLOR] [COLOR=Red]over thereby[/COLOR] [COLOR=White]r r[/COLOR]
and then that way [COLOR=White]r r[/COLOR] away [COLOR=White]r r[/COLOR]
but that which [COLOR=White]r r[/COLOR] why so thus [COLOR=White]r r[/COLOR] over thereby [COLOR=White]r r[/COLOR] away [COLOR=White]r r [/COLOR][/COLOR]

science_man_88 · 2013-03-26, 19:59

[QUOTE=LaurV;334979]

Indeed, b5 is a possibility, as SM88 said. It is not a bad move.
Others are Bg4, Bf5, exf4, a6, and even if we move the king in the corner, Kh8, to get out of the link with the pawn in c4 (in case he takes it, we are not delayed by a check).

Complicated stuff...[/QUOTE]

though what I said about them blocking with a pawn I don't know where it came from, one thing I noticed is half the moves here are on offense half on defense also all the offense moves seem to leave a possibility of check for us in the next few moves. they may not move the knight if at all possible with Bg4 because if they move it, it allows us to check with a protected rook, forcing the king off the back row. edit: have you looked at Bh3+ ? I see how letting the ep to the h column may come in handy towards getting their king surrounded even.

LaurV · 2013-03-27, 04:24

Thinking more and more... about the philosophical part, hehe, they really have at least one very good player in their team. I say this because the moves which were the most unclear for me (pawn to c3 and pawn to g5, the last one even "out of theory") are now troubling us the most. We can't get our black-square bishop out of there (d4 would be great, but h6 would be good too... grrr), and this holds us back at least 3-4 moves. Putting the white-square bishop to do something useful costs us another 2 moves (3 including the c8 we already did) and trying to hold his queen back costs even more moves. In fact all this game is about trying to hold that queen back. We can do a lot of things with the two rooks, but if we leave the base line, they have immediately eternal chess. Our main chance is if they get greedy and don't want a draw. Considering the fact that they have queen, and we don't, we still hope they will not go for the draw, and we hope they want to win.

Therefore, we have to concentrate more on the king side. He can't do too much with the queen's pawns, and if he tries to take the queen out through a4, this is just wasting of move. If we sacrifice that c4 pawn, that might be our chance to transform in e/f, or to let the pawn in e/f taking a heavier wood with it when it dies. So, we have to push it through and guard it, and hope the whites get greedy on the queen's side.

So, my pick is [B]24...exf4[/B].

Here, moves like 25.Qa4/Qc1/Qb1/a3/b3/h3/h4/ will result in black win (not easy, and I did not play them all, but considering the material advantage and the position, in all these cases we get their horse or bishop for the pawn, so we would really have big material advantage). 25.Nd4 is also black win, more difficult, but win. So they do not have many choices for reply. Those remaining choices would be: 25.Kf2/Kg2/Ng1/Bf3

From these four, I am [B]almost[/B] sure I can win the first two. Say 99% sure I can win the first, and 95% sure I can win the second :razz: For the third and the forth I still have no win, but our position is still good, and we still can force a draw any time. In fact here is all the trick, we may be able to sustain our pawns, and eat few of their pawns in the same time, ensuring a clear victory for us, but we need to live the base-line with the BOTH rocks, and go with both of them in the white territory. Like "behind enemy lines" :smile: In this case, white's only chance would be an eternal check, and we have no place to go with the king. He can't mate us, and we can't go out of there because his g5 pawn. We also can't ensure a clear transformation, because of his c3 pawn, it is difficult to get his king out from f2 square. Without black-square bishop or a horse, pushing that king out of the pawn's way is not easy. Therefore our secondary goal would be to free that bishop (like Rf7 or Re8, followed by Bf8 in case they do not immediately threaten to take the pawn in f4). If they get greedy and think "we have the queen, we can win", and give up the eternal check (they have a lot of possibilities too), then this game is black win for all 4 of the replies, i.e. black win in all cases.

science_man_88 · 2013-03-27, 12:04

[QUOTE=LaurV;335067]Thinking more and more... about the philosophical part, hehe, they really have at least one very good player in their team. I say this because the moves which were the most unclear for me (pawn to c3 and pawn to g5, the last one even "out of theory") are now troubling us the most. We can't get our black-square bishop out of there (d4 would be great, but h6 would be good too... grrr),.[/QUOTE]

EP can fix this: 24... h5 25. epxh Bxh6 then the bishop is free and aligns to f4 a double attack with the rook.

LaurV · 2013-03-27, 12:44

Yes, EP is good, but we must chose the moment when they are forced to take it. Now they are not: 24...h5/h6 25.Bxg6 and our king is naked...

science_man_88 · 2013-03-29, 14:47

[QUOTE=LaurV;335082]Yes, EP is good, but we must chose the moment when they are forced to take it. Now they are not: 24...h5/h6 25.Bxg6 and our king is naked...[/QUOTE]

I say that they would block with the bishop if we did Bg4 because if they move the knight they open up Rd1+ or have the knight captured by pawn, if they block we can capture the bishop but if we capture the knight as is we then would lose our bishop possibly. I'll have a look into the others.

LaurV · 2013-04-01, 06:06

Should we play something, or give up? :D
(maybe propose the draw?) :P

Or still voting?
My pick is as said, [B]24...exf4[/B].
I can win all the possible answers, except two. Most probably they will pick one of the two, as they already shown us they [U]can[/U] play chess...

But well.. c'est la guerre...

btw, how we do if everyone votes differently? I understand people don't like exf4? Rethink? Time left?

science_man_88 · 2013-04-01, 11:53

[QUOTE=LaurV;335663]Should we play something, or give up? :D
(maybe propose the draw?) :P

Or still voting?
My pick is as said, [B]24...exf4[/B].
I can win all the possible answers, except two. Most probably they will pick one of the two, as they already shown us they [U]can[/U] play chess...

But well.. c'est la guerre...

btw, how we do if everyone votes differently? I understand people don't like exf4? Rethink? Time left?[/QUOTE]

I'll agree to exf4 I guess I have nothing else right now.

2013-03-26, 04:03	#12
LaurV Romulan Interpreter "name field" Jun 2011 Thailand 2833₁₆ Posts	This is one move for which I could find no clear win. The other was Kf2. I hoped they would move Raman's Bf3, because that is a black win (indeed our best response would be Bf5, which leads to black win). But it wasn't to be... I am still thinking about the best answer for this move. There are many continuations possible here. That is why is so difficult to find a win, in spite of our material advantage. Indeed, b5 is a possibility, as SM88 said. It is not a bad move. Others are Bg4, Bf5, exf4, a6, and even if we move the king in the corner, Kh8, to get out of the link with the pawn in c4 (in case he takes it, we are not delayed by a check). Complicated stuff... Last fiddled with by LaurV on 2013-03-26 at 04:05

2013-03-26, 04:10	#13
Raman Noodles "Mr. Tuch" Dec 2007 Chennai, India 3×419 Posts	:exclaim:24...exf4:question: Why so thus? Last fiddled with by Raman on 2013-03-26 at 04:13 Reason: Why so thus? 24...exf4

2013-03-26, 06:50	#15
Raman Noodles "Mr. Tuch" Dec 2007 Chennai, India 4E9₁₆ Posts	[COLOR=Black][QUOTE=Dubslow;334981]There are certainly a myriad of possibilities here. I don't like exf4, it's an awkward structure. Getting the white bishop in action of shoring up our pawn line are both perfectly reasonable plans.[/QUOTE][/COLOR][QUOTE=Dubslow;334981][COLOR=Black] Hmm...[/COLOR][/QUOTE][COLOR=Black] [COLOR=White] r r[/COLOR][/COLOR] [COLOR=Black] Whether if in case not [COLOR=RoyalBlue][U]24...exf4[/U][/COLOR][/COLOR][COLOR=Black] [COLOR=White] r r[/COLOR][/COLOR][COLOR=Black] and then may be that [COLOR=Magenta][B]24...b5[/B][/COLOR] might be good enough[/COLOR][COLOR=Black] [COLOR=White] r r[/COLOR][/COLOR][COLOR=Black] [COLOR=Yellow]24...Bf5[/COLOR][/COLOR][COLOR=Black] [COLOR=White] r r[/COLOR][/COLOR] [COLOR=Black][COLOR=White]done[/COLOR] [/COLOR][COLOR=Black] [COLOR=White]r r [COLOR=Black]tempting[/COLOR][/COLOR][/COLOR][COLOR=Black] [/COLOR][COLOR=Black][COLOR=White]r r [COLOR=Black]move[/COLOR][/COLOR][/COLOR][COLOR=Black] [/COLOR][COLOR=Black][COLOR=White]r r [/COLOR][/COLOR][COLOR=Black]line [/COLOR][COLOR=Black][COLOR=White]r r [/COLOR] in order to [COLOR=White]r r [/COLOR] [/COLOR][COLOR=Black]to be being played out off [/COLOR][COLOR=Black][COLOR=White]r r [/COLOR] [COLOR=Lime]away[/COLOR] [/COLOR][COLOR=Black][COLOR=White]r r [/COLOR] [COLOR=White]r r [/COLOR] for the side game [COLOR=White]r r[/COLOR] for this thing and then stuff [COLOR=White]r r[/COLOR] for the protecting coverage[/COLOR][COLOR=Black] [COLOR=White]r r[/COLOR] [/COLOR][COLOR=Black][COLOR=DarkOrange][I]that light coloured square a4[/I][/COLOR] [COLOR=White]r r[/COLOR] [COLOR=Red]over thereby[/COLOR] [COLOR=White]r r[/COLOR] and then that way [COLOR=White]r r[/COLOR] away [COLOR=White]r r[/COLOR] but that which [COLOR=White]r r[/COLOR] why so thus [COLOR=White]r r[/COLOR] over thereby [COLOR=White]r r[/COLOR] away [COLOR=White]r r [/COLOR][/COLOR] Last fiddled with by Raman on 2013-03-26 at 07:13

2013-03-26, 19:59	#16
science_man_88 "Forget I exist" Jul 2009 Dartmouth NS 10000100001101₂ Posts	[QUOTE=LaurV;334979] Indeed, b5 is a possibility, as SM88 said. It is not a bad move. Others are Bg4, Bf5, exf4, a6, and even if we move the king in the corner, Kh8, to get out of the link with the pawn in c4 (in case he takes it, we are not delayed by a check). Complicated stuff...[/QUOTE] though what I said about them blocking with a pawn I don't know where it came from, one thing I noticed is half the moves here are on offense half on defense also all the offense moves seem to leave a possibility of check for us in the next few moves. they may not move the knight if at all possible with Bg4 because if they move it, it allows us to check with a protected rook, forcing the king off the back row. edit: have you looked at Bh3+ ? I see how letting the ep to the h column may come in handy towards getting their king surrounded even. Last fiddled with by science_man_88 on 2013-03-26 at 20:02

2013-03-27, 04:24	#17
LaurV Romulan Interpreter "name field" Jun 2011 Thailand 10100000110011₂ Posts	Thinking more and more... about the philosophical part, hehe, they really have at least one very good player in their team. I say this because the moves which were the most unclear for me (pawn to c3 and pawn to g5, the last one even "out of theory") are now troubling us the most. We can't get our black-square bishop out of there (d4 would be great, but h6 would be good too... grrr), and this holds us back at least 3-4 moves. Putting the white-square bishop to do something useful costs us another 2 moves (3 including the c8 we already did) and trying to hold his queen back costs even more moves. In fact all this game is about trying to hold that queen back. We can do a lot of things with the two rooks, but if we leave the base line, they have immediately eternal chess. Our main chance is if they get greedy and don't want a draw. Considering the fact that they have queen, and we don't, we still hope they will not go for the draw, and we hope they want to win. Therefore, we have to concentrate more on the king side. He can't do too much with the queen's pawns, and if he tries to take the queen out through a4, this is just wasting of move. If we sacrifice that c4 pawn, that might be our chance to transform in e/f, or to let the pawn in e/f taking a heavier wood with it when it dies. So, we have to push it through and guard it, and hope the whites get greedy on the queen's side. So, my pick is [B]24...exf4[/B]. Here, moves like 25.Qa4/Qc1/Qb1/a3/b3/h3/h4/ will result in black win (not easy, and I did not play them all, but considering the material advantage and the position, in all these cases we get their horse or bishop for the pawn, so we would really have big material advantage). 25.Nd4 is also black win, more difficult, but win. So they do not have many choices for reply. Those remaining choices would be: 25.Kf2/Kg2/Ng1/Bf3 From these four, I am [B]almost[/B] sure I can win the first two. Say 99% sure I can win the first, and 95% sure I can win the second :razz: For the third and the forth I still have no win, but our position is still good, and we still can force a draw any time. In fact here is all the trick, we may be able to sustain our pawns, and eat few of their pawns in the same time, ensuring a clear victory for us, but we need to live the base-line with the BOTH rocks, and go with both of them in the white territory. Like "behind enemy lines" :smile: In this case, white's only chance would be an eternal check, and we have no place to go with the king. He can't mate us, and we can't go out of there because his g5 pawn. We also can't ensure a clear transformation, because of his c3 pawn, it is difficult to get his king out from f2 square. Without black-square bishop or a horse, pushing that king out of the pawn's way is not easy. Therefore our secondary goal would be to free that bishop (like Rf7 or Re8, followed by Bf8 in case they do not immediately threaten to take the pawn in f4). If they get greedy and think "we have the queen, we can win", and give up the eternal check (they have a lot of possibilities too), then this game is black win for all 4 of the replies, i.e. black win in all cases. Last fiddled with by LaurV on 2013-03-27 at 04:50

2013-03-26, 04:18	#14
Dubslow Basketry That Evening! "Bunslow the Bold" Jun 2011 40<A<43 -89<O<-88 1110000110101₂ Posts	There are certainly a myriad of possibilities here. I don't like exf4, it's an awkward structure. Getting the white bishop in action of shoring up our pawn line are both perfectly reasonable plans. Hmm...

2013-03-27, 12:04	#18
science_man_88 "Forget I exist" Jul 2009 Dartmouth NS 8461₁₀ Posts	[QUOTE=LaurV;335067]Thinking more and more... about the philosophical part, hehe, they really have at least one very good player in their team. I say this because the moves which were the most unclear for me (pawn to c3 and pawn to g5, the last one even "out of theory") are now troubling us the most. We can't get our black-square bishop out of there (d4 would be great, but h6 would be good too... grrr),.[/QUOTE] EP can fix this: 24... h5 25. epxh Bxh6 then the bishop is free and aligns to f4 a double attack with the rook.

2013-03-27, 12:44	#19
LaurV Romulan Interpreter "name field" Jun 2011 Thailand 41·251 Posts	Yes, EP is good, but we must chose the moment when they are forced to take it. Now they are not: 24...h5/h6 25.Bxg6 and our king is naked...

2013-03-29, 14:47	#20
science_man_88 "Forget I exist" Jul 2009 Dartmouth NS 8,461 Posts	[QUOTE=LaurV;335082]Yes, EP is good, but we must chose the moment when they are forced to take it. Now they are not: 24...h5/h6 25.Bxg6 and our king is naked...[/QUOTE] I say that they would block with the bishop if we did Bg4 because if they move the knight they open up Rd1+ or have the knight captured by pawn, if they block we can capture the bishop but if we capture the knight as is we then would lose our bishop possibly. I'll have a look into the others. Last fiddled with by science_man_88 on 2013-03-29 at 15:11

2013-04-01, 06:06	#21
LaurV Romulan Interpreter "name field" Jun 2011 Thailand 24063₈ Posts	Should we play something, or give up? :D (maybe propose the draw?) :P Or still voting? My pick is as said, [B]24...exf4[/B]. I can win all the possible answers, except two. Most probably they will pick one of the two, as they already shown us they [U]can[/U] play chess... But well.. c'est la guerre... btw, how we do if everyone votes differently? I understand people don't like exf4? Rethink? Time left?

2013-04-01, 11:53	#22
science_man_88 "Forget I exist" Jul 2009 Dartmouth NS 8,461 Posts	[QUOTE=LaurV;335663]Should we play something, or give up? :D (maybe propose the draw?) :P Or still voting? My pick is as said, [B]24...exf4[/B]. I can win all the possible answers, except two. Most probably they will pick one of the two, as they already shown us they [U]can[/U] play chess... But well.. c'est la guerre... btw, how we do if everyone votes differently? I understand people don't like exf4? Rethink? Time left?[/QUOTE] I'll agree to exf4 I guess I have nothing else right now.