Move 24 - Page 4

Brian-E · 2013-03-23, 17:54

[QUOTE=Zeta-Flux;334673]In that line, Bxe5 does not follow, because we can push e6![/QUOTE]
If 24.Kf2 Rd2 25.Ke3 Rfd8 26.fxe5 Bg4 27.Nd4 Rxh2 28.e6 I think we are pretty uncomfortable after 28...Bxd4 29.cxd4 Re2+ 30.Kf4 Bxe6. I would prefer the lines following 26.f5 to this.

Brian-E · 2013-03-23, 18:00

After 24.Kf2 Rd2 25.Ke3 Rfd8 26.fxe5 Bg4 27.Nd4 Rxh2 28.e6 Bxd4 29.cxd4 Re2+ 30.Kf4 Bxe6, if 31.Bxg6 Rf8+ 32.Kg3 Rff2 33.Bxh7+ Kh8 34.Qg6 Rg2+ wins, or if 31.Kf3 Rxe4!

Zeta-Flux · 2013-03-23, 19:09

[QUOTE=henryzz;334497]I don't feel that 24. Kf2 Rd2 25. Ke3 Rfd8 26. f5 gxf5 27. Bxf5 leaves us in a that terrible position. Yes we have let his rooks foward a bit but we have sorted out the pawn problem.
With any of the Qc2 lines you seem to lose a pawn to fxe4 with no reply. Maybe I am thinking a little materially but that can be helpful in a tight game such as this one.[/QUOTE]

I played this line. How could either side improve the following?

24. Kf2 Rd2
25. Ke3 Rfd8
26. f5 gxf5
27. Bxf5 Bxf5
28. Qxf5 Rxb2
29. Ng3 [otherwise we may lose the knight after Rd3+, followed by Rdd2 if necessary] Rd3+
30. Ke4 Rxh2
31. Qe6+ Kf8 (or they lose)

It seems like we are losing.

richs · 2013-03-23, 20:29

Here's another variation of Z-F's last line:

24. Kf2 Rd2
25. Ke3 Rfd8
26. f5 gxf5
27. Bxf5 Bxf5
28. Qxf5 Rxb2
29. Qe6+ Kh8
30. a4 Rd3+
31. Kf2 Rd1
32. Qxc4 Bf8
33. Qe4 Bc5+
34. Kg3 Bd6

And we still have a chance....

Brian-E · 2013-03-23, 21:28

[QUOTE=richs;334704]Here's another variation of Z-F's last line:

24. Kf2 Rd2
25. Ke3 Rfd8
26. f5 gxf5
27. Bxf5 Bxf5
28. Qxf5 Rxb2
29. Qe6+ Kh8
30. a4 Rd3+
31. Kf2 Rd1
32. Qxc4 Bf8
33. Qe4 Bc5+
34. Kg3 Bd6

And we still have a chance....[/QUOTE]
I agree that 29.Qe6+ is an improvement (see post #28) but 30.a4 looks a bit dubious to me on principle. It's a sharp position, and niceties like preserving the a pawn seem less important to me than attacking the black king before our king succumbs.

29.Qe6+ Kh8 30.Qxc4 is fine for us because the rook on d8 can't leave the back rank for the moment, giving us more time to activate the knight.
But 29.Qe6+ Kf8 is better for them because if 30.Qxc4 Rdd2 31.Qc8+ Kf7! (not ...Ke7 32.Ng3) 32.Qf5+ Ke7 and our attack is stymied for the moment whereas the rooks can wreak havok.

Brian-E · 2013-03-23, 21:58

Maybe (24.Kf2 Rd2 25.Ke3 Rfd8 26.f5 gxf5 27.Bxf5 Bxf5 28.Qxf5 Rxb2 29.Qe6+) Kf8 30.Qxc4 Rdd2 [U]31.Ng3[/U] Rxh2 32.Qc8+ Kf7 33.Ne4 (not 33.Nf5 Rh3+) is fine for us? Now our threats look more immediate than theirs.

richs · 2013-03-23, 23:14

Brian, I agree that 29. ... Kf8 is better play for black. And I got a chuckle about your comment about 30. a4!

What I believe that these analyses show us is a preference for 24. Kf2 rather than 24. Qc2. Thoughts?

Zeta-Flux · 2013-03-24, 01:24

Kf2 is preferable only if the response Rd2 can be adequately dealt with. So far, I prefer Qc2. We stop the incursion, and keep them back.

richs · 2013-03-24, 01:28

Good point that I neglected to consider.... Ahh, Saturday afternoon chess while my wife wanted me pulling weeds!

Zeta-Flux · 2013-03-24, 12:47

Here are the two main lines I see on Kf2:

24. Kf2 Rd2
25. Ke3 Rfd8
26. fxe5 Bg4
27. Nd4 Rxh2
28. e6 Re2+
29. Kf4 Rd4
30. Kxg4 Rdxe4+
31. Kf3 Rxe6
and our queen is still not in the game

or

24. Kf2 Rd2
25. Ke3 Rfd8
26. f5 gxf5
27. Bxf5 Bxf5
28. Qxf5 b5
29. Qe6+ Kh8
and we may be able to pull off a draw

----

The main line of Qc2 is what?

Zeta-Flux · 2013-03-24, 16:36

Here are the two main lines I see under Qc2:

24. Qc2 exf4 25.Kf2 Bg4 26.b3 cxb3 27. axb3 Bxe2 28. Kxe2 Be5 (threatening f3, and an unstoppable pawn) 29. Ng1 f3 30. Nxf3 Bxh2 31. Kg2 and we seem to be holding our own.

24. Qc2 exf4 25. Kf2 f3 26. Ng1 Bg4 27. b3 Be5 28. bxc4 Bxh2 29. Nxf3 and we *can* stop their pawn, but just barely.

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2013-03-23, 17:54	#34
Brian-E "Brian" Jul 2007 The Netherlands 3278₁₀ Posts	[QUOTE=Zeta-Flux;334673]In that line, Bxe5 does not follow, because we can push e6![/QUOTE] If 24.Kf2 Rd2 25.Ke3 Rfd8 26.fxe5 Bg4 27.Nd4 Rxh2 28.e6 I think we are pretty uncomfortable after 28...Bxd4 29.cxd4 Re2+ 30.Kf4 Bxe6. I would prefer the lines following 26.f5 to this.

2013-03-23, 18:00	#35
Brian-E "Brian" Jul 2007 The Netherlands 6316₈ Posts	After 24.Kf2 Rd2 25.Ke3 Rfd8 26.fxe5 Bg4 27.Nd4 Rxh2 28.e6 Bxd4 29.cxd4 Re2+ 30.Kf4 Bxe6, if 31.Bxg6 Rf8+ 32.Kg3 Rff2 33.Bxh7+ Kh8 34.Qg6 Rg2+ wins, or if 31.Kf3 Rxe4!

2013-03-23, 19:09	#36
Zeta-Flux May 2003 7×13×17 Posts	[QUOTE=henryzz;334497]I don't feel that 24. Kf2 Rd2 25. Ke3 Rfd8 26. f5 gxf5 27. Bxf5 leaves us in a that terrible position. Yes we have let his rooks foward a bit but we have sorted out the pawn problem. With any of the Qc2 lines you seem to lose a pawn to fxe4 with no reply. Maybe I am thinking a little materially but that can be helpful in a tight game such as this one.[/QUOTE] I played this line. How could either side improve the following? 24. Kf2 Rd2 25. Ke3 Rfd8 26. f5 gxf5 27. Bxf5 Bxf5 28. Qxf5 Rxb2 29. Ng3 [otherwise we may lose the knight after Rd3+, followed by Rdd2 if necessary] Rd3+ 30. Ke4 Rxh2 31. Qe6+ Kf8 (or they lose) It seems like we are losing.

2013-03-23, 20:29	#37
richs "Rich" Aug 2002 Benicia, California 2·859 Posts	Here's another variation of Z-F's last line: 24. Kf2 Rd2 25. Ke3 Rfd8 26. f5 gxf5 27. Bxf5 Bxf5 28. Qxf5 Rxb2 29. Qe6+ Kh8 30. a4 Rd3+ 31. Kf2 Rd1 32. Qxc4 Bf8 33. Qe4 Bc5+ 34. Kg3 Bd6 And we still have a chance....

2013-03-23, 21:28	#38
Brian-E "Brian" Jul 2007 The Netherlands 2·11·149 Posts	[QUOTE=richs;334704]Here's another variation of Z-F's last line: 24. Kf2 Rd2 25. Ke3 Rfd8 26. f5 gxf5 27. Bxf5 Bxf5 28. Qxf5 Rxb2 29. Qe6+ Kh8 30. a4 Rd3+ 31. Kf2 Rd1 32. Qxc4 Bf8 33. Qe4 Bc5+ 34. Kg3 Bd6 And we still have a chance....[/QUOTE] I agree that 29.Qe6+ is an improvement (see post #28) but 30.a4 looks a bit dubious to me on principle. It's a sharp position, and niceties like preserving the a pawn seem less important to me than attacking the black king before our king succumbs. 29.Qe6+ Kh8 30.Qxc4 is fine for us because the rook on d8 can't leave the back rank for the moment, giving us more time to activate the knight. But 29.Qe6+ Kf8 is better for them because if 30.Qxc4 Rdd2 31.Qc8+ Kf7! (not ...Ke7 32.Ng3) 32.Qf5+ Ke7 and our attack is stymied for the moment whereas the rooks can wreak havok.

2013-03-23, 21:58	#39
Brian-E "Brian" Jul 2007 The Netherlands 2×11×149 Posts	Maybe (24.Kf2 Rd2 25.Ke3 Rfd8 26.f5 gxf5 27.Bxf5 Bxf5 28.Qxf5 Rxb2 29.Qe6+) Kf8 30.Qxc4 Rdd2 [U]31.Ng3[/U] Rxh2 32.Qc8+ Kf7 33.Ne4 (not 33.Nf5 Rh3+) is fine for us? Now our threats look more immediate than theirs.

2013-03-23, 23:14	#40
richs "Rich" Aug 2002 Benicia, California 6B6₁₆ Posts	Brian, I agree that 29. ... Kf8 is better play for black. And I got a chuckle about your comment about 30. a4! What I believe that these analyses show us is a preference for 24. Kf2 rather than 24. Qc2. Thoughts?

2013-03-24, 01:24	#41
Zeta-Flux May 2003 7·13·17 Posts	Kf2 is preferable only if the response Rd2 can be adequately dealt with. So far, I prefer Qc2. We stop the incursion, and keep them back.

2013-03-24, 01:28	#42
richs "Rich" Aug 2002 Benicia, California 2·859 Posts	Good point that I neglected to consider.... Ahh, Saturday afternoon chess while my wife wanted me pulling weeds!

2013-03-24, 12:47	#43
Zeta-Flux May 2003 7×13×17 Posts	Here are the two main lines I see on Kf2: 24. Kf2 Rd2 25. Ke3 Rfd8 26. fxe5 Bg4 27. Nd4 Rxh2 28. e6 Re2+ 29. Kf4 Rd4 30. Kxg4 Rdxe4+ 31. Kf3 Rxe6 and our queen is still not in the game or 24. Kf2 Rd2 25. Ke3 Rfd8 26. f5 gxf5 27. Bxf5 Bxf5 28. Qxf5 b5 29. Qe6+ Kh8 and we may be able to pull off a draw ---- The main line of Qc2 is what?

2013-03-24, 16:36	#44
Zeta-Flux May 2003 7·13·17 Posts	Here are the two main lines I see under Qc2: 24. Qc2 exf4 25.Kf2 Bg4 26.b3 cxb3 27. axb3 Bxe2 28. Kxe2 Be5 (threatening f3, and an unstoppable pawn) 29. Ng1 f3 30. Nxf3 Bxh2 31. Kg2 and we seem to be holding our own. 24. Qc2 exf4 25. Kf2 f3 26. Ng1 Bg4 27. b3 Be5 28. bxc4 Bxh2 29. Nxf3 and we can stop their pawn, but just barely.