Move 24 - Page 3

Zeta-Flux · 2013-03-22, 15:07

I played out a few more versions of Qc2, and it seems to me that with proper play we can do very well.

henryzz,

We still lose the pawn after Kf2, with them simply playing.

24. Kf2 Bg4
25. Ke3 Bxe2
26. Kxe2 exf4

Now, instead of having our queen on the stronger d2 square, we wasted moves with our king.

Zeta-Flux · 2013-03-22, 15:12

Although, I suppose, our second move could be Qd2..., if Brian doesn't see some other problem with that move order.

Brian-E · 2013-03-22, 15:21

Yes, all three of us now seem to anticipate playing Qc2 and Kf2 in either order, with the order not mattering too much. As David was actually suggesting right back on the first post.:smile:

Looking forward to hearing your latest ideas too, Rich.

henryzz · 2013-03-22, 15:47

Either is fine here. We have studied Qc2 more so that seems the logical choice.

Zeta-Flux · 2013-03-22, 19:22

If we have time, we should look at Kf2 more. There are two differences I see. First, we may be able to draw them into playing 24. Kf2 Rd2, otherwise on our next turn we can still play Qc2 and come right back to where we were. Second, we can blockade f3 with our king (if we want to, I'm not sure that is necessarily what we need to do) if they immediately play exf4.

So the question is: Does 24. Kf2 Rd2 look good for us? I'll try to work out a few variations and see what I can come up with. I like your f-pawn push (even though it leaves their passed pawn in place), but I'll give it a closer look.

Cheers,
Pace

Brian-E · 2013-03-22, 19:39

[QUOTE=Zeta-Flux;334550]So the question is: Does 24. Kf2 Rd2 look good for us? I'll try to work out a few variations and see what I can come up with. I like your f-pawn push (even though it leaves their passed pawn in place), but I'll give it a closer look.

Cheers,
Pace[/QUOTE]
Pace and David, you are probably both ahead of me on this, but the when I was looking at this earlier after David's explanation I felt the critical line was: 24.Kf2 Rd2 25.Ke3 Rfd8 26.f5 gxf5 27.Bxf5 Bxf5 28.Qxf5 Rxb2 29.Qe6+ Kh8 30.Qxc4. I judge this position fine for us. But instead Black can try 29...Kf8 30.Qxc4 Rdd2 and I'm not so sure.

The question, indeed, is whether we want to tempt Black into this.

richs · 2013-03-22, 23:45

Here's one line that I played where they take our f4 pawn and then advance their pawn:

24. Qc2 exf4
25. Kf2 f3
26. Ng1 Bf5
27. Bxf5 Rxf5
28. Nxf3

With this line, it doesn't matter the order of Qc2 or Kf2. But we're even after 28 Nxf3.

But how about moving our bishop which allows our Queen freedom?

24. Bc6 exf4
25. Qe4 Rd1+
26. Kf2 Bh3
27. Qxc4+ Kh8

This will certainly open the game.

Zeta-Flux · 2013-03-23, 00:14

[QUOTE=richs;334577]Here's one line that I played where they take our f4 pawn and then advance their pawn:

24. Qc2 exf4
25. Kf2 f3
26. Ng1 Bf5
27. Bxf5 Rxf5
28. Nxf3

With this line, it doesn't matter the order of Qc2 or Kf2. But we're even after 28 Nxf3.[/quote]

This line does not work. Their next move is Rd3, and they win the knight.

Instead, on that line I think we should play:

24. Qc2 exf4
25. Kf2 f3
26. Nd4 (and we try to blockade their pawn, and their rooks). If they ever move their rooks off the lines they are on, we can start thinking about taking the pawn.

[quote]
But how about moving our bishop which allows our Queen freedom?

24. Bc6 exf4
25. Qe4 Rd1+
26. Kf2 Bh3
27. Qxc4+ Kh8

This will certainly open the game.[/QUOTE]Yes, but I think a better line for black is:

24. Bc6 Bf5 (following by pinning the knight probably).

Zeta-Flux · 2013-03-23, 00:41

What if instead of the f-pawn push we play:

24. Kf2 Rd2
25. Ke3 Rfd8
26. fxe5 Bxe5
27. h4 Bg4
28. Nf4

We seem to be holding them off pretty well, and threatening their kingside if they don't watch out. (By the way, I have to compliment you guys on trading the rooks for their queen. I think our queen is turning out to be much stronger than their combined rooks at the moment. It will just get worse once we get her out.)

Brian-E · 2013-03-23, 08:46

[QUOTE=Zeta-Flux;334581]What if instead of the f-pawn push we play:

24. Kf2 Rd2
25. Ke3 Rfd8
26. fxe5 Bxe5
27. h4 Bg4
28. Nf4
[/QUOTE]
Yes, maybe that's good. But perhaps they can improve by delaying the recapture on e5: 26...Bg4 27.Nd4 Rxh2 with ...Bxe5 to follow (not 28.Nc6 Rdd2). But it's not clear to me which side is on top here.

Zeta-Flux · 2013-03-23, 17:10

In that line, Bxe5 does not follow, because we can push e6!

2013-03-22, 19:22	#27
Zeta-Flux May 2003 7·13·17 Posts	If we have time, we should look at Kf2 more. There are two differences I see. First, we may be able to draw them into playing 24. Kf2 Rd2, otherwise on our next turn we can still play Qc2 and come right back to where we were. Second, we can blockade f3 with our king (if we want to, I'm not sure that is necessarily what we need to do) if they immediately play exf4. So the question is: Does 24. Kf2 Rd2 look good for us? I'll try to work out a few variations and see what I can come up with. I like your f-pawn push (even though it leaves their passed pawn in place), but I'll give it a closer look. Cheers, Pace Last fiddled with by Zeta-Flux on 2013-03-22 at 19:26

2013-03-23, 00:41	#31
Zeta-Flux May 2003 7·13·17 Posts	What if instead of the f-pawn push we play: 24. Kf2 Rd2 25. Ke3 Rfd8 26. fxe5 Bxe5 27. h4 Bg4 28. Nf4 We seem to be holding them off pretty well, and threatening their kingside if they don't watch out. (By the way, I have to compliment you guys on trading the rooks for their queen. I think our queen is turning out to be much stronger than their combined rooks at the moment. It will just get worse once we get her out.) Last fiddled with by Zeta-Flux on 2013-03-23 at 00:44

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2013-03-22, 15:07	#23
Zeta-Flux May 2003 7·13·17 Posts	I played out a few more versions of Qc2, and it seems to me that with proper play we can do very well. henryzz, We still lose the pawn after Kf2, with them simply playing. 24. Kf2 Bg4 25. Ke3 Bxe2 26. Kxe2 exf4 Now, instead of having our queen on the stronger d2 square, we wasted moves with our king.

2013-03-22, 15:12	#24
Zeta-Flux May 2003 7·13·17 Posts	Although, I suppose, our second move could be Qd2..., if Brian doesn't see some other problem with that move order.

2013-03-22, 15:21	#25
Brian-E "Brian" Jul 2007 The Netherlands 3278₁₀ Posts	Yes, all three of us now seem to anticipate playing Qc2 and Kf2 in either order, with the order not mattering too much. As David was actually suggesting right back on the first post.:smile: Looking forward to hearing your latest ideas too, Rich.

2013-03-22, 15:47	#26
henryzz Just call me Henry "David" Sep 2007 Liverpool (GMT/BST) 3×23×89 Posts	Either is fine here. We have studied Qc2 more so that seems the logical choice.

2013-03-22, 19:39	#28
Brian-E "Brian" Jul 2007 The Netherlands 2×11×149 Posts	[QUOTE=Zeta-Flux;334550]So the question is: Does 24. Kf2 Rd2 look good for us? I'll try to work out a few variations and see what I can come up with. I like your f-pawn push (even though it leaves their passed pawn in place), but I'll give it a closer look. Cheers, Pace[/QUOTE] Pace and David, you are probably both ahead of me on this, but the when I was looking at this earlier after David's explanation I felt the critical line was: 24.Kf2 Rd2 25.Ke3 Rfd8 26.f5 gxf5 27.Bxf5 Bxf5 28.Qxf5 Rxb2 29.Qe6+ Kh8 30.Qxc4. I judge this position fine for us. But instead Black can try 29...Kf8 30.Qxc4 Rdd2 and I'm not so sure. The question, indeed, is whether we want to tempt Black into this.

2013-03-22, 23:45	#29
richs "Rich" Aug 2002 Benicia, California 6B6₁₆ Posts	Here's one line that I played where they take our f4 pawn and then advance their pawn: 24. Qc2 exf4 25. Kf2 f3 26. Ng1 Bf5 27. Bxf5 Rxf5 28. Nxf3 With this line, it doesn't matter the order of Qc2 or Kf2. But we're even after 28 Nxf3. But how about moving our bishop which allows our Queen freedom? 24. Bc6 exf4 25. Qe4 Rd1+ 26. Kf2 Bh3 27. Qxc4+ Kh8 This will certainly open the game.

2013-03-23, 00:14	#30
Zeta-Flux May 2003 7×13×17 Posts	[QUOTE=richs;334577]Here's one line that I played where they take our f4 pawn and then advance their pawn: 24. Qc2 exf4 25. Kf2 f3 26. Ng1 Bf5 27. Bxf5 Rxf5 28. Nxf3 With this line, it doesn't matter the order of Qc2 or Kf2. But we're even after 28 Nxf3.[/quote] This line does not work. Their next move is Rd3, and they win the knight. Instead, on that line I think we should play: 24. Qc2 exf4 25. Kf2 f3 26. Nd4 (and we try to blockade their pawn, and their rooks). If they ever move their rooks off the lines they are on, we can start thinking about taking the pawn. [quote] But how about moving our bishop which allows our Queen freedom? 24. Bc6 exf4 25. Qe4 Rd1+ 26. Kf2 Bh3 27. Qxc4+ Kh8 This will certainly open the game.[/QUOTE]Yes, but I think a better line for black is: 24. Bc6 Bf5 (following by pinning the knight probably).

2013-03-23, 08:46	#32
Brian-E "Brian" Jul 2007 The Netherlands CCE₁₆ Posts	[QUOTE=Zeta-Flux;334581]What if instead of the f-pawn push we play: 24. Kf2 Rd2 25. Ke3 Rfd8 26. fxe5 Bxe5 27. h4 Bg4 28. Nf4 [/QUOTE] Yes, maybe that's good. But perhaps they can improve by delaying the recapture on e5: 26...Bg4 27.Nd4 Rxh2 with ...Bxe5 to follow (not 28.Nc6 Rdd2). But it's not clear to me which side is on top here.

2013-03-23, 17:10	#33
Zeta-Flux May 2003 7×13×17 Posts	In that line, Bxe5 does not follow, because we can push e6!