Move 24 - Page 2

Zeta-Flux · 2013-03-20, 18:07

[QUOTE=Brian-E;334167]Even better, I think, is 26.Nd4, just as in the line you posted earlier. Then we are intending Nf3 to blockade on f3 which is much more active than blockading with the bishop. If they counter this with 26...Bxd4+ 27.cxd4 b5 (27...Rxd4 28.Bxg6) 28.d5 and we have prospects of activating our queen on the c3-h8 diagonal as well as having our own passed pawn.[/QUOTE]

If they played Bxd4, I agree with you that things work out well for us. But in that line I think they would instead play 26. ... f3!

Unless you see a way around that, 26. Bf3 seems the best bet. (I would love to play Nd4 otherwise.)

Brian-E · 2013-03-20, 18:26

[QUOTE=Zeta-Flux;334232]If they played Bxd4, I agree with you that things work out well for us. But in that line I think they would instead play 26. ... f3!

Unless you see a way around that, 26. Bf3 seems the best bet. (I would love to play Nd4 otherwise.)[/QUOTE]
But then what's wrong with (24.Qc2 Bg4 25.Kf2 exf4 26.Nd4 f3) 27.Nxf3? Am I missing something obvious again?

EDIT: I stared at it for 5 minutes before posting, and only saw when I had posted. 27...Bxf3 28.Bxf3 Rd3. OK, I'll try again.:)

Brian-E · 2013-03-20, 18:44

Clearly I didn't think 26.Nd4 through properly, and 26.Bf3 may indeed be necessary.

However: 24.Qc2 Bg4 25.Kf2 exf4 26.Nd4 f3 27.h3 may also be playable, capturing on f3 if Black plays ...Bxh3, or forking on e6 if ...Bh5.

Zeta-Flux · 2013-03-20, 19:16

[QUOTE=Brian-E;334238]Clearly I didn't think 26.Nd4 through properly, and 26.Bf3 may indeed be necessary.

However: 24.Qc2 Bg4 25.Kf2 exf4 26.Nd4 f3 27.h3 may also be playable, capturing on f3 if Black plays ...Bxh3, or forking on e6 if ...Bh5.[/QUOTE]

Doesn't 27. ... Bxh3 28. Bxf3 Bg4 renew the threat, and there isn't much we can do that stop the take...

Brian-E · 2013-03-20, 20:59

[QUOTE=Zeta-Flux;334241]Doesn't 27. ... Bxh3 28. Bxf3 Bg4 renew the threat, and there isn't much we can do that stop the take...[/QUOTE]
Yes, agreed. 27.h3 is no good. As you said originally, 26.Bf3 looks necessary.
Maybe 26.Bf3 Bxf3 27.Kxf3 Rd3+ 28.Kf2 Rfd8 29.Qa4 is okay for us?

Brian-E · 2013-03-22, 10:13

David and Rich, can we have more input from you if you have time?
Do you both still support the moves you were advocating before?

henryzz · 2013-03-22, 11:40

Sorry term ends today. Should have more time afterwards.
I still like the direct approach of Kf2 to defending against that pawn although it looks like it is also possible with Qc2 followed by Kf2. I'm currently fine with either.

Brian-E · 2013-03-22, 13:25

My main concern about 24.Kf2 is that it seems to allow 24...Rd2 followed by ...Rfd8 and invasion. Is this fear of mine ungrounded?

richs · 2013-03-22, 14:31

Sorry, very busy week at work for me. I'll provide more input later today when I have a chance to think and review.

henryzz · 2013-03-22, 14:31

I don't feel that 24. Kf2 Rd2 25. Ke3 Rfd8 26. f5 gxf5 27. Bxf5 leaves us in a that terrible position. Yes we have let his rooks foward a bit but we have sorted out the pawn problem.
With any of the Qc2 lines you seem to lose a pawn to fxe4 with no reply. Maybe I am thinking a little materially but that can be helpful in a tight game such as this one.

Brian-E · 2013-03-22, 15:02

[QUOTE=henryzz;334497]I don't feel that 24. Kf2 Rd2 25. Ke3 Rfd8 26. f5 gxf5 27. Bxf5 leaves us in a that terrible position. Yes we have let his rooks foward a bit but we have sorted out the pawn problem.
With any of the Qc2 lines you seem to lose a pawn to fxe4 with no reply. Maybe I am thinking a little materially but that can be helpful in a tight game such as this one.[/QUOTE]
Right, yes I agree that that line is good for us. In that case, 24...Rd2 seems not a good reply if we play 24.Kf2, and better would be 24...Bg4.
In which case I think we lose the f pawn whatever we play, but should concentrate on blockading that and trying to activate the queen.

I support either 24.Kf2 or 24.Qc2 at the moment.

2013-03-20, 18:26	#13
Brian-E "Brian" Jul 2007 The Netherlands 3278₁₀ Posts	[QUOTE=Zeta-Flux;334232]If they played Bxd4, I agree with you that things work out well for us. But in that line I think they would instead play 26. ... f3! Unless you see a way around that, 26. Bf3 seems the best bet. (I would love to play Nd4 otherwise.)[/QUOTE] But then what's wrong with (24.Qc2 Bg4 25.Kf2 exf4 26.Nd4 f3) 27.Nxf3? Am I missing something obvious again? EDIT: I stared at it for 5 minutes before posting, and only saw when I had posted. 27...Bxf3 28.Bxf3 Rd3. OK, I'll try again.:) Last fiddled with by Brian-E on 2013-03-20 at 18:31

2013-03-22, 15:02	#22
Brian-E "Brian" Jul 2007 The Netherlands 2×11×149 Posts	[QUOTE=henryzz;334497]I don't feel that 24. Kf2 Rd2 25. Ke3 Rfd8 26. f5 gxf5 27. Bxf5 leaves us in a that terrible position. Yes we have let his rooks foward a bit but we have sorted out the pawn problem. With any of the Qc2 lines you seem to lose a pawn to fxe4 with no reply. Maybe I am thinking a little materially but that can be helpful in a tight game such as this one.[/QUOTE] Right, yes I agree that that line is good for us. In that case, 24...Rd2 seems not a good reply if we play 24.Kf2, and better would be 24...Bg4. In which case I think we lose the f pawn whatever we play, but should concentrate on blockading that and trying to activate the queen. I support either 24.Kf2 or 24.Qc2 at the moment. Last fiddled with by Brian-E on 2013-03-22 at 15:06 Reason: removed erroneous alternative line

Similar Threads
Thread	Thread Starter	Forum	Replies	Last Post
Stockfish game: "Move 9 poll", not "move 2^74,207,281-1 discussion"	MooMoo2	Other Chess Games	1	2016-10-25 18:03
Stockfish game: "Move 8 poll", not "move 3.14159 discussion"	MooMoo2	Other Chess Games	5	2016-10-22 01:55
Stockfish game: "Move 5 poll", not "move 0 discussion"	MooMoo2	Other Chess Games	0	2016-10-05 15:50
Stockfish game: "Move 4 poll", not "move 100 discussion"	MooMoo2	Other Chess Games	0	2016-09-28 19:51
Stockfish game: "Move 2 poll", not "move 2 discussion"	MooMoo2	Other Chess Games	0	2016-09-19 19:56

2013-03-20, 18:07	#12
Zeta-Flux May 2003 7×13×17 Posts	[QUOTE=Brian-E;334167]Even better, I think, is 26.Nd4, just as in the line you posted earlier. Then we are intending Nf3 to blockade on f3 which is much more active than blockading with the bishop. If they counter this with 26...Bxd4+ 27.cxd4 b5 (27...Rxd4 28.Bxg6) 28.d5 and we have prospects of activating our queen on the c3-h8 diagonal as well as having our own passed pawn.[/QUOTE] If they played Bxd4, I agree with you that things work out well for us. But in that line I think they would instead play 26. ... f3! Unless you see a way around that, 26. Bf3 seems the best bet. (I would love to play Nd4 otherwise.)

2013-03-20, 18:44	#14
Brian-E "Brian" Jul 2007 The Netherlands 2×11×149 Posts	Clearly I didn't think 26.Nd4 through properly, and 26.Bf3 may indeed be necessary. However: 24.Qc2 Bg4 25.Kf2 exf4 26.Nd4 f3 27.h3 may also be playable, capturing on f3 if Black plays ...Bxh3, or forking on e6 if ...Bh5.

2013-03-20, 19:16	#15
Zeta-Flux May 2003 3013₈ Posts	[QUOTE=Brian-E;334238]Clearly I didn't think 26.Nd4 through properly, and 26.Bf3 may indeed be necessary. However: 24.Qc2 Bg4 25.Kf2 exf4 26.Nd4 f3 27.h3 may also be playable, capturing on f3 if Black plays ...Bxh3, or forking on e6 if ...Bh5.[/QUOTE] Doesn't 27. ... Bxh3 28. Bxf3 Bg4 renew the threat, and there isn't much we can do that stop the take...

2013-03-20, 20:59	#16
Brian-E "Brian" Jul 2007 The Netherlands 2·11·149 Posts	[QUOTE=Zeta-Flux;334241]Doesn't 27. ... Bxh3 28. Bxf3 Bg4 renew the threat, and there isn't much we can do that stop the take...[/QUOTE] Yes, agreed. 27.h3 is no good. As you said originally, 26.Bf3 looks necessary. Maybe 26.Bf3 Bxf3 27.Kxf3 Rd3+ 28.Kf2 Rfd8 29.Qa4 is okay for us?

2013-03-22, 10:13	#17
Brian-E "Brian" Jul 2007 The Netherlands 2·11·149 Posts	David and Rich, can we have more input from you if you have time? Do you both still support the moves you were advocating before?

2013-03-22, 11:40	#18
henryzz Just call me Henry "David" Sep 2007 Liverpool (GMT/BST) 3×23×89 Posts	Sorry term ends today. Should have more time afterwards. I still like the direct approach of Kf2 to defending against that pawn although it looks like it is also possible with Qc2 followed by Kf2. I'm currently fine with either.

2013-03-22, 13:25	#19
Brian-E "Brian" Jul 2007 The Netherlands 2·11·149 Posts	My main concern about 24.Kf2 is that it seems to allow 24...Rd2 followed by ...Rfd8 and invasion. Is this fear of mine ungrounded?

2013-03-22, 14:31	#20
richs "Rich" Aug 2002 Benicia, California 2×859 Posts	Sorry, very busy week at work for me. I'll provide more input later today when I have a chance to think and review.