Move 23

henryzz · 2013-03-11, 17:44

Bxb7 or Kxf1?
I think we pretty much agreed on Kxf1 from memory.

Brian-E · 2013-03-11, 17:47

The two obvious moves I can see are 23.Kxf1 and 23.Bxb7.

But is 23.Bxg6 just a fantasy? Black must avoid, for example, 23...Nd2 24.Bxh7+ Kh8 25.Qg6 Be4?? 26.Qh5 Bxh7 (otherwise Bg6+ mates) 27.g6. I haven't looked very deeply at this line and I guess Black can do a lot better (who can see how?), in which case I advocate 23.Kxf1 as we were intending.

Brian-E · 2013-03-11, 17:49

Oops, sorry, we've started a new thread simultaneously. LOL.
Could you combine our two contributions into one, David?:smile:

Brian-E · 2013-03-11, 18:05

In addition to the other line I posted starting 23.Bxg6, this is also possible:
23.Bxg6 hxg6 24.Qxg6 intending f5, and if Black tries 24...Ne3 to counter this, then 25.Qe6+ Kh8 (25...Rf7 26.g6) 26.Qh3+ Kh8 27.Qe6+ Kh7 28.Qh3+ Kg6 (trying to win) and now 29.Qxe3 might be good, or otherwise 29.Qe6+ leaves Black only with ...Bf6 if they want to escape the perpetual check.

henryzz · 2013-03-11, 20:12

That maybe worth looking into further but it looks a very risky strategy.
IMO 24. ... Rd1 is better. If we reply 25. f5 as you planned Ng3+ 26. Kf2 Nh1+ 27. Ke3 Rd3#
I think it applies more pressure onto white than Ne3.

Zeta-Flux · 2013-03-11, 22:30

In that line, move 24 is more properly 24. Qg6+ Kh8

But I'm not sure hxg6 is the right 23rd move for black. At the very best, they get a draw from that (we have a perpetual check).

Better for them is:

23. Bxg6 Ne3 (threatening Rd1)
24. Bxh7+ Kh8
25. Qg6 Ng4 (threatening Rd1++!)
26. Qc2 (not 26. Ng3 Rxf4 27. Qb1 Ne3!) Ne3
and they get a perpetual repetition going.

But I'm not sure they can do better than draw in this position. Perhaps better is:

23. Bxg6 Ne3
24. Bxh7 Kh8
25. Qg6 Rd1+
26. Kf2 exf4 and we have to move our knight somewhere (haven't worked out all the lines)

Zeta-Flux · 2013-03-12, 00:18

Um...for some reason I completely played that position without the bishop on g7. Ignore my previous commentary!

Zeta-Flux · 2013-03-12, 01:46

I've played a few variations, and it just doesn't seem like we gain enough by taking the kingside pawns with our bishop, while letting black close in on our king. One line is the following:

23. Bxg6 Ne3
24. Bxh7+ Kh8
25. Qg6 Rd1+
26. Kf2 exf4
and we now must move our knight. The best option seems to be:
27. Ng3 Ng4+
28. Ke2 Rd3
29. Qh5 Bf3+
30. Ke1/f1 Rd1++
The other three options end similarly.

Brian-E · 2013-03-12, 18:47

Thanks for the analysis of 23.Bxg6. I agree with both of you: by playing ...Rd1 they make their mating attack come in before ours does.

It was indeed just a fantasy then. If they have reasonably strong players amongst them, they will probably have worked out what you both did because they could have avoided it by playing 22...Bxe4 23. Qxe4 Nxf1 instead.

Okay, I vote for 23.Kxf1 as we were intending before.

Zeta-Flux · 2013-03-12, 19:05

Me too. I think the line may go something like:

23. Kxf1 Bc8
24. Kf2 exf4
etc...

The main struggle will be to bring out our queen. Let's hope they are foolish and play 23. ... Bxe4 instead.

henryzz · 2013-03-12, 22:42

I agree with Kxf1
richs?

[quote]If they have reasonably strong players amongst them[/quote]
A certainty they have played very well so far. I don't think we are unsubstantial opposition. I would guess that both team's ratings would be in the 2000s.

2013-03-11, 17:44	#1
henryzz Just call me Henry "David" Sep 2007 Liverpool (GMT/BST) 3×23×89 Posts	Move 23 Bxb7 or Kxf1? I think we pretty much agreed on Kxf1 from memory. Last fiddled with by henryzz on 2013-03-11 at 17:45

2013-03-11, 17:47	#2
Brian-E "Brian" Jul 2007 The Netherlands 2×11×149 Posts	Move 23 The two obvious moves I can see are 23.Kxf1 and 23.Bxb7. But is 23.Bxg6 just a fantasy? Black must avoid, for example, 23...Nd2 24.Bxh7+ Kh8 25.Qg6 Be4?? 26.Qh5 Bxh7 (otherwise Bg6+ mates) 27.g6. I haven't looked very deeply at this line and I guess Black can do a lot better (who can see how?), in which case I advocate 23.Kxf1 as we were intending.

2013-03-11, 18:05	#4
Brian-E "Brian" Jul 2007 The Netherlands 110011001110₂ Posts	In addition to the other line I posted starting 23.Bxg6, this is also possible: 23.Bxg6 hxg6 24.Qxg6 intending f5, and if Black tries 24...Ne3 to counter this, then 25.Qe6+ Kh8 (25...Rf7 26.g6) 26.Qh3+ Kh8 27.Qe6+ Kh7 28.Qh3+ Kg6 (trying to win) and now 29.Qxe3 might be good, or otherwise 29.Qe6+ leaves Black only with ...Bf6 if they want to escape the perpetual check. Last fiddled with by Brian-E on 2013-03-11 at 18:09 Reason: correction

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2013-03-11, 17:49	#3
Brian-E "Brian" Jul 2007 The Netherlands 2×11×149 Posts	Oops, sorry, we've started a new thread simultaneously. LOL. Could you combine our two contributions into one, David?:smile:

2013-03-11, 20:12	#5
henryzz Just call me Henry "David" Sep 2007 Liverpool (GMT/BST) 3·23·89 Posts	That maybe worth looking into further but it looks a very risky strategy. IMO 24. ... Rd1 is better. If we reply 25. f5 as you planned Ng3+ 26. Kf2 Nh1+ 27. Ke3 Rd3# I think it applies more pressure onto white than Ne3.

2013-03-11, 22:30	#6
Zeta-Flux May 2003 3013₈ Posts	In that line, move 24 is more properly 24. Qg6+ Kh8 But I'm not sure hxg6 is the right 23rd move for black. At the very best, they get a draw from that (we have a perpetual check). Better for them is: 23. Bxg6 Ne3 (threatening Rd1) 24. Bxh7+ Kh8 25. Qg6 Ng4 (threatening Rd1++!) 26. Qc2 (not 26. Ng3 Rxf4 27. Qb1 Ne3!) Ne3 and they get a perpetual repetition going. But I'm not sure they can do better than draw in this position. Perhaps better is: 23. Bxg6 Ne3 24. Bxh7 Kh8 25. Qg6 Rd1+ 26. Kf2 exf4 and we have to move our knight somewhere (haven't worked out all the lines)

2013-03-12, 00:18	#7
Zeta-Flux May 2003 7×13×17 Posts	Um...for some reason I completely played that position without the bishop on g7. Ignore my previous commentary!

2013-03-12, 01:46	#8
Zeta-Flux May 2003 7×13×17 Posts	I've played a few variations, and it just doesn't seem like we gain enough by taking the kingside pawns with our bishop, while letting black close in on our king. One line is the following: 23. Bxg6 Ne3 24. Bxh7+ Kh8 25. Qg6 Rd1+ 26. Kf2 exf4 and we now must move our knight. The best option seems to be: 27. Ng3 Ng4+ 28. Ke2 Rd3 29. Qh5 Bf3+ 30. Ke1/f1 Rd1++ The other three options end similarly.

2013-03-12, 18:47	#9
Brian-E "Brian" Jul 2007 The Netherlands 2·11·149 Posts	Thanks for the analysis of 23.Bxg6. I agree with both of you: by playing ...Rd1 they make their mating attack come in before ours does. It was indeed just a fantasy then. If they have reasonably strong players amongst them, they will probably have worked out what you both did because they could have avoided it by playing 22...Bxe4 23. Qxe4 Nxf1 instead. Okay, I vote for 23.Kxf1 as we were intending before.

2013-03-12, 19:05	#10
Zeta-Flux May 2003 7·13·17 Posts	Me too. I think the line may go something like: 23. Kxf1 Bc8 24. Kf2 exf4 etc... The main struggle will be to bring out our queen. Let's hope they are foolish and play 23. ... Bxe4 instead.

2013-03-12, 22:42	#11
henryzz Just call me Henry "David" Sep 2007 Liverpool (GMT/BST) 6141₁₀ Posts	I agree with Kxf1 richs? [quote]If they have reasonably strong players amongst them[/quote] A certainty they have played very well so far. I don't think we are unsubstantial opposition. I would guess that both team's ratings would be in the 2000s.