Move 20 - Page 3

henryzz · 2013-02-25, 18:58

[QUOTE=Brian-E;330944]Rather than 24.Qc2, I would advocate 24.fxe5 here. If 24...Bxe5 25.Nd4 Bxd4+ 26.cxd4 Rxd4 (or 26...Nf3+ 27.Bxf3 Rxf3 28.Qe1 is similar) 27.Qe1 Nf3+ (27...Rg5+ 28.Kh1 is no better for Black) 28.Bxf3 Rxf3 29.Qe8+ Rf8 (otherwise we check on e5 and win a rook) 30.Qe6+ is a draw by perpetual check.
If instead 24...Nf3+ 25.Bxf3 Rxf3 26.Nd4 we might even think about winning.

I haven't examined your line following 20.Qd2 yet because I think that's a weaker move for us, but I'll have a quick look at that now too.[/QUOTE]
I wouldn't do 24. fxe5. Black can reply Rf1+ followed by 25.Qxf1 Nxf1 26.Kxf1 Bxe5.
I would recommend something like 24. Qe1. If he does fxe5 then we can block the knight in with Nd4. Another reasonable option IMO is 24. Bg2.

richs · 2013-02-25, 19:43

I looked at 20. Qd2 etc. in post #13 and we do end up down a pawn.

I agree that 20. Rbd1 is the stronger move.

Zeta-Flux · 2013-02-25, 20:05

I don't think that Qe1 works fast enough to keep them out:

24. Qe1 Rd3 or e4

Brian-E · 2013-02-25, 20:52

I missed the reply ...Rf1+ to my blunder fxe5. Thanks for the correction David.

Maybe 20.Rbd1 Nxe3 21.Rxd8 Raxd8 22.Qc1 Nxf1 23.Qxf1 Bxe4 24.Qc1 is okay?

EDIT: Doesn't really look so good, no, after 24...Rd3 with ...Rfd8 to follow.
I prefer David's suggestion so far of Qe1 in the other line. At least, I'm not convinced that the moves suggested by Zeta-Flux in reply are clearly winning for Black.
I want to play 20.Rbd1 on general principles, even if we can't yet see how to get out of the problems tactically.

henryzz · 2013-02-25, 20:59

[QUOTE=Brian-E;330985]I missed the reply ...Rf1+ to my blunder fxe5. Thanks for the correction David.

Maybe 20.Rbd1 Nxe3 21.Rxd8 Raxd8 22.Qc1 Nxf1 23.Qxf1 Bxe4 24.Qc1 is okay?[/QUOTE]

How is a knight and a queen against two rooks and two bishops good?

richs · 2013-02-26, 01:03

In this line, I suggested 23. Bxb7 back in post #7 rather than 23. Qxf1.

Zeta-Flux · 2013-02-26, 02:35

I agree that in principle Rbd1 seems like a solid move. But after Nxe3 all the moves in that line seem forced, and we lose multiple trades.

Here is another option:

20. Qd2 Nxe3
21. Qxe3 exf4
22. Qf3 Qxg5+
23. Kh1 Bxe4
24. Qxe4

and the position looks very drawable.

richs · 2013-02-26, 02:56

We're down two pawns and have a knight vs their bishop in the sequence you just suggested, Z-F. I preferred the line that I took in post 13 where we ended up down only one pawn.

20. Qd2 does result in some major exchanges which simplifies the board for end game. But best case that I can see we are down one pawn.

20. Rbd1 keeps the suspense higher with fewer exchanges, although they could go for an immediate Queen exchange.

I'm on the fence on this one.

We have to post on Tuesday by 12:41 PST (my local time).

Zeta-Flux · 2013-02-26, 03:30

richs,

On the line I just gave, we win a pawn back on our next move (if that is the best option). On the line you gave, on move 24 they can instead play

20. Qd2 Nxe3
21. Qxe3 exf4
22. Rxf4 Qxg5+
23. Kh1 Rxf4
24. Nxf4 Re8!

and now we lose a piece.

Here is another option though:

20. Qd2 Nxe3
21. Qxe3 exf4
22. Rxf4 Qxg5+
23. Qg3

Brian-E · 2013-02-26, 11:05

[QUOTE=Zeta-Flux;331045]
Here is another option though:

20. Qd2 Nxe3
21. Qxe3 exf4
22. Rxf4 Qxg5+
23. Qg3[/QUOTE]
After 23...Qxg3+ 24.hxg3 (24.Nxg3? Rxf4 25.Bxb7 Rd8) Bxe4 25.Rxe4 Rad8 we are again a pawn down with a bad position.

We need to make a move: we're out of time. I advocate (vote for) 20.Rbd1. I also support any of the moves 20.Qd2, 20.Bf2 or 20.Bd2 if the vote is tied, whichever of those three moves gives us a majority decision.

I may not be around at the moment we run out of time: is anyone else available in around 8-9 hours time to play the move which has the most support at that moment? Dubslow has posted an easy-going remark in the main Vote chess thread, but I would suggest we should still avoid overstepping the time limit if at all possible.

henryzz · 2013-02-26, 11:11

[QUOTE=Brian-E;331066]After 23...Qxg3+ 24.hxg3 (24.Nxg3? Rxf4 25.Bxb7 Rd8) Bxe4 25.Rxe4 Rad8 we are again a pawn down with a bad position.

We need to make a move: we're out of time. I advocate (vote for) 20.Rbd1. I also support any of the moves 20.Qd2, 20.Bf2 or 20.Bd2 if the vote is tied, whichever of those three moves gives us a majority decision.

I may not be around at the moment we run out of time: is anyone else available in around 8-9 hours time to play the move which has the most support at that moment? Dubslow has posted an easy-going remark in the main Vote chess thread, but I would suggest we should still avoid overstepping the time limit if at all possible.[/QUOTE]
I should be around. I have just been hit by a car so I am in bed for most of the day. The only thing I can't guarrentee is not falling asleep etc. I am in a bit of shock.

2013-02-25, 20:52	#26
Brian-E "Brian" Jul 2007 The Netherlands 2×11×149 Posts	I missed the reply ...Rf1+ to my blunder fxe5. Thanks for the correction David. Maybe 20.Rbd1 Nxe3 21.Rxd8 Raxd8 22.Qc1 Nxf1 23.Qxf1 Bxe4 24.Qc1 is okay? EDIT: Doesn't really look so good, no, after 24...Rd3 with ...Rfd8 to follow. I prefer David's suggestion so far of Qe1 in the other line. At least, I'm not convinced that the moves suggested by Zeta-Flux in reply are clearly winning for Black. I want to play 20.Rbd1 on general principles, even if we can't yet see how to get out of the problems tactically. Last fiddled with by Brian-E on 2013-02-25 at 20:59

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2013-02-25, 18:58	#23
henryzz Just call me Henry "David" Sep 2007 Liverpool (GMT/BST) 3·23·89 Posts	[QUOTE=Brian-E;330944]Rather than 24.Qc2, I would advocate 24.fxe5 here. If 24...Bxe5 25.Nd4 Bxd4+ 26.cxd4 Rxd4 (or 26...Nf3+ 27.Bxf3 Rxf3 28.Qe1 is similar) 27.Qe1 Nf3+ (27...Rg5+ 28.Kh1 is no better for Black) 28.Bxf3 Rxf3 29.Qe8+ Rf8 (otherwise we check on e5 and win a rook) 30.Qe6+ is a draw by perpetual check. If instead 24...Nf3+ 25.Bxf3 Rxf3 26.Nd4 we might even think about winning. I haven't examined your line following 20.Qd2 yet because I think that's a weaker move for us, but I'll have a quick look at that now too.[/QUOTE] I wouldn't do 24. fxe5. Black can reply Rf1+ followed by 25.Qxf1 Nxf1 26.Kxf1 Bxe5. I would recommend something like 24. Qe1. If he does fxe5 then we can block the knight in with Nd4. Another reasonable option IMO is 24. Bg2.

2013-02-25, 19:43	#24
richs "Rich" Aug 2002 Benicia, California 6B6₁₆ Posts	I looked at 20. Qd2 etc. in post #13 and we do end up down a pawn. I agree that 20. Rbd1 is the stronger move.

2013-02-25, 20:05	#25
Zeta-Flux May 2003 7×13×17 Posts	I don't think that Qe1 works fast enough to keep them out: 24. Qe1 Rd3 or e4

2013-02-25, 20:59	#27
henryzz Just call me Henry "David" Sep 2007 Liverpool (GMT/BST) 1011111111101₂ Posts	[QUOTE=Brian-E;330985]I missed the reply ...Rf1+ to my blunder fxe5. Thanks for the correction David. Maybe 20.Rbd1 Nxe3 21.Rxd8 Raxd8 22.Qc1 Nxf1 23.Qxf1 Bxe4 24.Qc1 is okay?[/QUOTE] How is a knight and a queen against two rooks and two bishops good?

2013-02-26, 01:03	#28
richs "Rich" Aug 2002 Benicia, California 2×859 Posts	In this line, I suggested 23. Bxb7 back in post #7 rather than 23. Qxf1.

2013-02-26, 02:35	#29
Zeta-Flux May 2003 7×13×17 Posts	I agree that in principle Rbd1 seems like a solid move. But after Nxe3 all the moves in that line seem forced, and we lose multiple trades. Here is another option: 20. Qd2 Nxe3 21. Qxe3 exf4 22. Qf3 Qxg5+ 23. Kh1 Bxe4 24. Qxe4 and the position looks very drawable.

2013-02-26, 02:56	#30
richs "Rich" Aug 2002 Benicia, California 2·859 Posts	We're down two pawns and have a knight vs their bishop in the sequence you just suggested, Z-F. I preferred the line that I took in post 13 where we ended up down only one pawn. 20. Qd2 does result in some major exchanges which simplifies the board for end game. But best case that I can see we are down one pawn. 20. Rbd1 keeps the suspense higher with fewer exchanges, although they could go for an immediate Queen exchange. I'm on the fence on this one. We have to post on Tuesday by 12:41 PST (my local time).

2013-02-26, 03:30	#31
Zeta-Flux May 2003 7·13·17 Posts	richs, On the line I just gave, we win a pawn back on our next move (if that is the best option). On the line you gave, on move 24 they can instead play 20. Qd2 Nxe3 21. Qxe3 exf4 22. Rxf4 Qxg5+ 23. Kh1 Rxf4 24. Nxf4 Re8! and now we lose a piece. Here is another option though: 20. Qd2 Nxe3 21. Qxe3 exf4 22. Rxf4 Qxg5+ 23. Qg3

2013-02-26, 11:05	#32
Brian-E "Brian" Jul 2007 The Netherlands 2·11·149 Posts	[QUOTE=Zeta-Flux;331045] Here is another option though: 20. Qd2 Nxe3 21. Qxe3 exf4 22. Rxf4 Qxg5+ 23. Qg3[/QUOTE] After 23...Qxg3+ 24.hxg3 (24.Nxg3? Rxf4 25.Bxb7 Rd8) Bxe4 25.Rxe4 Rad8 we are again a pawn down with a bad position. We need to make a move: we're out of time. I advocate (vote for) 20.Rbd1. I also support any of the moves 20.Qd2, 20.Bf2 or 20.Bd2 if the vote is tied, whichever of those three moves gives us a majority decision. I may not be around at the moment we run out of time: is anyone else available in around 8-9 hours time to play the move which has the most support at that moment? Dubslow has posted an easy-going remark in the main Vote chess thread, but I would suggest we should still avoid overstepping the time limit if at all possible.

2013-02-26, 11:11	#33
henryzz Just call me Henry "David" Sep 2007 Liverpool (GMT/BST) 3×23×89 Posts	[QUOTE=Brian-E;331066]After 23...Qxg3+ 24.hxg3 (24.Nxg3? Rxf4 25.Bxb7 Rd8) Bxe4 25.Rxe4 Rad8 we are again a pawn down with a bad position. We need to make a move: we're out of time. I advocate (vote for) 20.Rbd1. I also support any of the moves 20.Qd2, 20.Bf2 or 20.Bd2 if the vote is tied, whichever of those three moves gives us a majority decision. I may not be around at the moment we run out of time: is anyone else available in around 8-9 hours time to play the move which has the most support at that moment? Dubslow has posted an easy-going remark in the main Vote chess thread, but I would suggest we should still avoid overstepping the time limit if at all possible.[/QUOTE] I should be around. I have just been hit by a car so I am in bed for most of the day. The only thing I can't guarrentee is not falling asleep etc. I am in a bit of shock.