Move 20 - Page 2

Zeta-Flux · 2013-02-21, 22:06

Brian-E,

What makes you like Rbd1 better than, say, Qd2? (I like the options we have in that line, but I may have missed something.)

richs · 2013-02-22, 00:38

Here's my take on 20. Qd2:

20. Qd2 Nxe3
21. Qxe3 exf4
22. Rxf4 Qxg5+
23. Kh1 Rxf4
24. Nxf4 Rf8
25. Bxb7 Qxf4
26. Bd5+ Kh8
27. Qxf4 Rxf4

Each side ends up with a rook and bishop, and we are down one pawn. But I like our chances with end play.

Zeta-Flux · 2013-02-22, 03:40

Yeah, I had completely blown off this route until Brian-E mentioned it as a possibility. Now I like it a lot.

In the variation you gave, I (currently) favor 22. Nxf4 instead of the rook take, because it opens up a possible future fork on e6. Indeed, if they are foolish, and play continues:

22. Nxf4 Qxg5+
23. Kh1 Bxe4
24. Qxe4 we are now threatening the fork and the pawn on c4.

However, instead of playing 20. ... Nxe3 they could play exf4 and we should consider what to do there.

-----------

The other line using Bf2, which I thought was promising, doesn't look so promising:

20. Bf2 exf4
21. h4 f3
22. Nd4

Their queen has a *very* good chance of attacking our king playing Qd7.

henryzz · 2013-02-22, 11:18

[QUOTE=richs;330400]Here's my take on 20. Qd2:

20. Qd2 Nxe3
21. Qxe3 exf4
22. Rxf4 Qxg5+
23. Kh1 Rxf4
24. Nxf4 Rf8
25. Bxb7 Qxf4
26. Bd5+ Kh8
27. Qxf4 Rxf4

Each side ends up with a rook and bishop, and we are down one pawn. But I like our chances with end play.[/QUOTE]
Seems to work reasonably. I don't like the fact we are a pawn down in that position. Let's see if we can find better:smile: I would still tend towards Rbd1.
I need to catch up on this thread and think a bit. Sorry been busy this week.

Brian-E · 2013-02-22, 12:03

I, too, am busy the last few days. Will study the position and all of your comments more deeply and post soon.

Brian-E · 2013-02-22, 20:34

Okay, I've brought myself up to date with all of your comments so far and played through the lines you all suggest.
[QUOTE=Zeta-Flux;330384]Brian-E,

What makes you like Rbd1 better than, say, Qd2? (I like the options we have in that line, but I may have missed something.)[/QUOTE]
While I agree that 20.Qd2 is playable (and also that 20.Qc1 is not!) I still prefer 20.Rbd1 on the following considerations:
[LIST][*]we are bringing our inactive rook into play[*]with the queen still on c2 there may be possibilities of playing the sacrifice Bxg6 in some situations[*]I think the double-pin of their knight on d5 against both d8 and b7 - if they don't go for 20...Nxe3 - looks strong for us.[/LIST]These considerations are based on my current "feel for the position" rather than concrete tactical lines.

Zeta-Flux · 2013-02-23, 05:06

On the Rbd1 line, I think we are okay after Nxe3 and after exf4. What is our response to Qd7?

Brian-E · 2013-02-23, 18:02

[QUOTE=Zeta-Flux;330580]On the Rbd1 line, I think we are okay after Nxe3 and after exf4. What is our response to Qd7?[/QUOTE]
20.Rbd1 Qd7 21. Rf2 looks like an adequate reply. There may be better responses.

Zeta-Flux · 2013-02-25, 15:18

Okay, so I think we are converging on either Rbd1 or Qd2.

Here is one line I see under Rbd1:
20. Rbd1 Nxe3
21. Rxd8 Raxd8
22. Qc1 Nxf1
23. Bxb7 Nd2
24. Qc2 exf4 (and possibly Kh8 soon, along with the passed pawn push)

Their rooks are in a strong position, and their knight is deadly. Their passed pawn is also deadly. Indeed, if they had one extra move they would certainly win a piece (or promote it). It will take a few moves to get our queen into position, and our knight is in danger of being threatened by the passed pawn.

Under Qd2 here is one line I see:
20. Qd2 Nxe3
21. Qxd3 exf4
22. Rxf4 Qxg5+
23. Kh1 Rxf4
24. Nxf4 Rae8
and I think we lose the trade.

Anything anyone can improve on here?

Brian-E · 2013-02-25, 16:40

[QUOTE=Zeta-Flux;330934]Okay, so I think we are converging on either Rbd1 or Qd2.

Here is one line I see under Rbd1:
20. Rbd1 Nxe3
21. Rxd8 Raxd8
22. Qc1 Nxf1
23. Bxb7 Nd2
24. Qc2 exf4 (and possibly Kh8 soon, along with the passed pawn push)

Their rooks are in a strong position, and their knight is deadly. Their passed pawn is also deadly. Indeed, if they had one extra move they would certainly win a piece (or promote it). It will take a few moves to get our queen into position, and our knight is in danger of being threatened by the passed pawn.
[/QUOTE]
Rather than 24.Qc2, I would advocate 24.fxe5 here. If 24...Bxe5 25.Nd4 Bxd4+ 26.cxd4 Rxd4 (or 26...Nf3+ 27.Bxf3 Rxf3 28.Qe1 is similar) 27.Qe1 Nf3+ (27...Rg5+ 28.Kh1 is no better for Black) 28.Bxf3 Rxf3 29.Qe8+ Rf8 (otherwise we check on e5 and win a rook) 30.Qe6+ is a draw by perpetual check.
If instead 24...Nf3+ 25.Bxf3 Rxf3 26.Nd4 we might even think about winning.

I haven't examined your line following 20.Qd2 yet because I think that's a weaker move for us, but I'll have a quick look at that now too.

Brian-E · 2013-02-25, 16:48

[QUOTE=Zeta-Flux;330934]
Under Qd2 here is one line I see:
20. Qd2 Nxe3
21. Qxd3 exf4
22. Rxf4 Qxg5+
23. Kh1 Rxf4
24. Nxf4 Rae8
and I think we lose the trade.
[/QUOTE]
Yes, horrible. I don't see any improvement for us here (though I'm not very motivated to try since I prefer David's move 20.Rbd1, it has to be said!). 20.Qd2 is not playable unless anyone can pull us out of that hole.

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2013-02-21, 22:06	#12
Zeta-Flux May 2003 7·13·17 Posts	Brian-E, What makes you like Rbd1 better than, say, Qd2? (I like the options we have in that line, but I may have missed something.)

2013-02-22, 00:38	#13
richs "Rich" Aug 2002 Benicia, California 1718₁₀ Posts	Here's my take on 20. Qd2: 20. Qd2 Nxe3 21. Qxe3 exf4 22. Rxf4 Qxg5+ 23. Kh1 Rxf4 24. Nxf4 Rf8 25. Bxb7 Qxf4 26. Bd5+ Kh8 27. Qxf4 Rxf4 Each side ends up with a rook and bishop, and we are down one pawn. But I like our chances with end play.

2013-02-22, 03:40	#14
Zeta-Flux May 2003 7×13×17 Posts	Yeah, I had completely blown off this route until Brian-E mentioned it as a possibility. Now I like it a lot. In the variation you gave, I (currently) favor 22. Nxf4 instead of the rook take, because it opens up a possible future fork on e6. Indeed, if they are foolish, and play continues: 22. Nxf4 Qxg5+ 23. Kh1 Bxe4 24. Qxe4 we are now threatening the fork and the pawn on c4. However, instead of playing 20. ... Nxe3 they could play exf4 and we should consider what to do there. ----------- The other line using Bf2, which I thought was promising, doesn't look so promising: 20. Bf2 exf4 21. h4 f3 22. Nd4 Their queen has a very good chance of attacking our king playing Qd7.

2013-02-22, 11:18	#15
henryzz Just call me Henry "David" Sep 2007 Liverpool (GMT/BST) 3·23·89 Posts	[QUOTE=richs;330400]Here's my take on 20. Qd2: 20. Qd2 Nxe3 21. Qxe3 exf4 22. Rxf4 Qxg5+ 23. Kh1 Rxf4 24. Nxf4 Rf8 25. Bxb7 Qxf4 26. Bd5+ Kh8 27. Qxf4 Rxf4 Each side ends up with a rook and bishop, and we are down one pawn. But I like our chances with end play.[/QUOTE] Seems to work reasonably. I don't like the fact we are a pawn down in that position. Let's see if we can find better:smile: I would still tend towards Rbd1. I need to catch up on this thread and think a bit. Sorry been busy this week.

2013-02-22, 12:03	#16
Brian-E "Brian" Jul 2007 The Netherlands 2×11×149 Posts	I, too, am busy the last few days. Will study the position and all of your comments more deeply and post soon.

2013-02-22, 20:34	#17
Brian-E "Brian" Jul 2007 The Netherlands 2·11·149 Posts	Okay, I've brought myself up to date with all of your comments so far and played through the lines you all suggest. [QUOTE=Zeta-Flux;330384]Brian-E, What makes you like Rbd1 better than, say, Qd2? (I like the options we have in that line, but I may have missed something.)[/QUOTE] While I agree that 20.Qd2 is playable (and also that 20.Qc1 is not!) I still prefer 20.Rbd1 on the following considerations: [LIST][]we are bringing our inactive rook into play[]with the queen still on c2 there may be possibilities of playing the sacrifice Bxg6 in some situations[*]I think the double-pin of their knight on d5 against both d8 and b7 - if they don't go for 20...Nxe3 - looks strong for us.[/LIST]These considerations are based on my current "feel for the position" rather than concrete tactical lines.

2013-02-23, 05:06	#18
Zeta-Flux May 2003 7×13×17 Posts	On the Rbd1 line, I think we are okay after Nxe3 and after exf4. What is our response to Qd7?

2013-02-23, 18:02	#19
Brian-E "Brian" Jul 2007 The Netherlands 2×11×149 Posts	[QUOTE=Zeta-Flux;330580]On the Rbd1 line, I think we are okay after Nxe3 and after exf4. What is our response to Qd7?[/QUOTE] 20.Rbd1 Qd7 21. Rf2 looks like an adequate reply. There may be better responses.

2013-02-25, 15:18	#20
Zeta-Flux May 2003 11000001011₂ Posts	Okay, so I think we are converging on either Rbd1 or Qd2. Here is one line I see under Rbd1: 20. Rbd1 Nxe3 21. Rxd8 Raxd8 22. Qc1 Nxf1 23. Bxb7 Nd2 24. Qc2 exf4 (and possibly Kh8 soon, along with the passed pawn push) Their rooks are in a strong position, and their knight is deadly. Their passed pawn is also deadly. Indeed, if they had one extra move they would certainly win a piece (or promote it). It will take a few moves to get our queen into position, and our knight is in danger of being threatened by the passed pawn. Under Qd2 here is one line I see: 20. Qd2 Nxe3 21. Qxd3 exf4 22. Rxf4 Qxg5+ 23. Kh1 Rxf4 24. Nxf4 Rae8 and I think we lose the trade. Anything anyone can improve on here?

2013-02-25, 16:40	#21
Brian-E "Brian" Jul 2007 The Netherlands 2·11·149 Posts	[QUOTE=Zeta-Flux;330934]Okay, so I think we are converging on either Rbd1 or Qd2. Here is one line I see under Rbd1: 20. Rbd1 Nxe3 21. Rxd8 Raxd8 22. Qc1 Nxf1 23. Bxb7 Nd2 24. Qc2 exf4 (and possibly Kh8 soon, along with the passed pawn push) Their rooks are in a strong position, and their knight is deadly. Their passed pawn is also deadly. Indeed, if they had one extra move they would certainly win a piece (or promote it). It will take a few moves to get our queen into position, and our knight is in danger of being threatened by the passed pawn. [/QUOTE] Rather than 24.Qc2, I would advocate 24.fxe5 here. If 24...Bxe5 25.Nd4 Bxd4+ 26.cxd4 Rxd4 (or 26...Nf3+ 27.Bxf3 Rxf3 28.Qe1 is similar) 27.Qe1 Nf3+ (27...Rg5+ 28.Kh1 is no better for Black) 28.Bxf3 Rxf3 29.Qe8+ Rf8 (otherwise we check on e5 and win a rook) 30.Qe6+ is a draw by perpetual check. If instead 24...Nf3+ 25.Bxf3 Rxf3 26.Nd4 we might even think about winning. I haven't examined your line following 20.Qd2 yet because I think that's a weaker move for us, but I'll have a quick look at that now too.

2013-02-25, 16:48	#22
Brian-E "Brian" Jul 2007 The Netherlands 2×11×149 Posts	[QUOTE=Zeta-Flux;330934] Under Qd2 here is one line I see: 20. Qd2 Nxe3 21. Qxd3 exf4 22. Rxf4 Qxg5+ 23. Kh1 Rxf4 24. Nxf4 Rae8 and I think we lose the trade. [/QUOTE] Yes, horrible. I don't see any improvement for us here (though I'm not very motivated to try since I prefer David's move 20.Rbd1, it has to be said!). 20.Qd2 is not playable unless anyone can pull us out of that hole.