Move 19 - Page 4

henryzz · 2013-02-12, 08:07

[QUOTE=Zeta-Flux;329058]Here is the line I see in the Ng3 variant:

19. Bxe4 Bxe4
20. Qxe4 Qd3
21. Ng3 Nf5

The only options seem to be Qxd3, Nxf5, or moving the bishop. The first two options force each other:

22. Nxf5 gxf5
23. Qxd3 cxd3
24. fxe5 Bxe5

vs.

22. Qxd3 cxd3
23. Nxf5 to avoid the e-pawn push! gxf5
24. fxe5 Bxe5
and we are back to the same place. They have two passed pawns. They are separated and thus weaker, but we don't have our knight to pick them off.

I can't tell who has the upper-hand.

So, the other alternative is
22. Bf2 Nxg3
23. Qxd3 (once again forced) cxd3
24. Bxg3 (or hxg3 may be better) e4
and they have a rock-solid two protected passed pawns, with a bishop of the same color as us, and two rooks. Not a good idea.[/QUOTE]

22. Qxd3 cxd3
23. Nxf5 to avoid the e-pawn push! gxf5
24. fxe5 Bxe5

This is my favoured out of these positions. I think we can get the d pawn using a rook on d1 and f3. This is going to need some thinking about and explanation to make sure I haven't missed anything.

henryzz · 2013-02-12, 08:33

As far as I can see there are 4 variations we need to study.
25. Rbd1 Rad8 26. Rf3 or 25. Rf3 Rad8 26. Rbd1

25. Rbd1 f4

25. Rf3 f4

and a hidden 25.Rf3 Rfe8

I will get to these later. I have a couple of lectures.

Zeta-Flux · 2013-02-12, 14:29

In my post, the option 22. Nxf5 clearly fails to ... Qxe4! I should have caught that obvious move.

I too (in the Rbe1 line) like the Qxd3 choice the best. Although, the other also seems defensible for a while.

Also, why not
25. Bd4
if they trade ... Bxd4
26. cxd4
and we can not only protect our passed pawns, but blockade and take theirs as well!

If they don't trade, we still start our assault on the d-pawn.

Brian-E · 2013-02-12, 15:31

You are both examining 19.Bxe4 Bxe4 20.Qxe4 Qd3 21.Ng3 Nf5 leading mostly to dynamic equality, but surely 21...Nd5 is a stronger move since it attacks f4 as well as e3? That is still the move which I fear.

henryzz · 2013-02-12, 19:42

[QUOTE=Brian-E;329096]You are both examining 19.Bxe4 Bxe4 20.Qxe4 Qd3 21.Ng3 Nf5 leading mostly to dynamic equality, but surely 21...Nd5 is a stronger move since it attacks f4 as well as e3? That is still the move which I fear.[/QUOTE]

Nf5 is the move I expect. I am just checking that there isn't something in that line we particularly don't want since I have gone though the other line relatively thoroughly.
It might have to wait until tomorrow. I have had an annoying headache all day.

richs · 2013-02-12, 19:52

How about this variation that I played with my brother:

19. Bxe4 Bxe4
20. Qxe4 Qd3
21. Ng3 Nd5
22. Rf3 exf4
23. Bf2 Qxe4
24. Nxe4

This looks pretty good for us.

Brian-E · 2013-02-12, 20:50

[QUOTE=richs;329145]How about this variation that I played with my brother:

19. Bxe4 Bxe4
20. Qxe4 Qd3
21. Ng3 Nd5
22. Rf3 exf4
23. Bf2 Qxe4
24. Nxe4

This looks pretty good for us.[/QUOTE]
As in other lines where they play 21...Nd5 I think we lose pawn in this one too: 22.Rf3 Qxe4 23.Nxe4 Nxe3 24.Rxe3 exf4. This looks worse to me than some of the lines deeply analysed by Zeta-Flux and henryzz where we still get a reasonable position.

Generally speaking, I still advocate 19.Rbd1, because I prefer complications to a simpler endgame in the case where we are fighting for a draw. But I am less pessimistic than I was about the endgames which may result from 19.Bxe4 after being persuaded by Zeta-Flux and henryzz, and I will certainly support 19.Bxe4 now if that's the consensus which we are heading for.

richs · 2013-02-12, 22:10

We still have a couple of days before having to post our move. Sorry I haven't been as involved as I'd like, but real life interferes....

Brian-E · 2013-02-13, 17:02

Yep, we still have more than 24 hours as I write now. However, I would say we are approaching the point where if any of us has any serious new insight we won't have enough time to discuss it.

Are we pretty much converging on playing the move 19.Bxe4?

Zeta-Flux · 2013-02-13, 20:05

Unless someone expresses serious concerns, by coming up with something we've missed, I vote Bxe4. (Sorry Brian! I know Rbd1 looks fun!)

richs · 2013-02-13, 20:34

Bxe4 for me.

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2013-02-12, 08:07	#34
henryzz Just call me Henry "David" Sep 2007 Liverpool (GMT/BST) 3·23·89 Posts	[QUOTE=Zeta-Flux;329058]Here is the line I see in the Ng3 variant: 19. Bxe4 Bxe4 20. Qxe4 Qd3 21. Ng3 Nf5 The only options seem to be Qxd3, Nxf5, or moving the bishop. The first two options force each other: 22. Nxf5 gxf5 23. Qxd3 cxd3 24. fxe5 Bxe5 vs. 22. Qxd3 cxd3 23. Nxf5 to avoid the e-pawn push! gxf5 24. fxe5 Bxe5 and we are back to the same place. They have two passed pawns. They are separated and thus weaker, but we don't have our knight to pick them off. I can't tell who has the upper-hand. So, the other alternative is 22. Bf2 Nxg3 23. Qxd3 (once again forced) cxd3 24. Bxg3 (or hxg3 may be better) e4 and they have a rock-solid two protected passed pawns, with a bishop of the same color as us, and two rooks. Not a good idea.[/QUOTE] 22. Qxd3 cxd3 23. Nxf5 to avoid the e-pawn push! gxf5 24. fxe5 Bxe5 This is my favoured out of these positions. I think we can get the d pawn using a rook on d1 and f3. This is going to need some thinking about and explanation to make sure I haven't missed anything.

2013-02-12, 08:33	#35
henryzz Just call me Henry "David" Sep 2007 Liverpool (GMT/BST) 3×23×89 Posts	As far as I can see there are 4 variations we need to study. 25. Rbd1 Rad8 26. Rf3 or 25. Rf3 Rad8 26. Rbd1 25. Rbd1 f4 25. Rf3 f4 and a hidden 25.Rf3 Rfe8 I will get to these later. I have a couple of lectures.

2013-02-12, 14:29	#36
Zeta-Flux May 2003 1547₁₀ Posts	In my post, the option 22. Nxf5 clearly fails to ... Qxe4! I should have caught that obvious move. I too (in the Rbe1 line) like the Qxd3 choice the best. Although, the other also seems defensible for a while. Also, why not 25. Bd4 if they trade ... Bxd4 26. cxd4 and we can not only protect our passed pawns, but blockade and take theirs as well! If they don't trade, we still start our assault on the d-pawn.

2013-02-12, 15:31	#37
Brian-E "Brian" Jul 2007 The Netherlands 2×11×149 Posts	You are both examining 19.Bxe4 Bxe4 20.Qxe4 Qd3 21.Ng3 Nf5 leading mostly to dynamic equality, but surely 21...Nd5 is a stronger move since it attacks f4 as well as e3? That is still the move which I fear.

2013-02-12, 19:42	#38
henryzz Just call me Henry "David" Sep 2007 Liverpool (GMT/BST) 1011111111101₂ Posts	[QUOTE=Brian-E;329096]You are both examining 19.Bxe4 Bxe4 20.Qxe4 Qd3 21.Ng3 Nf5 leading mostly to dynamic equality, but surely 21...Nd5 is a stronger move since it attacks f4 as well as e3? That is still the move which I fear.[/QUOTE] Nf5 is the move I expect. I am just checking that there isn't something in that line we particularly don't want since I have gone though the other line relatively thoroughly. It might have to wait until tomorrow. I have had an annoying headache all day.

2013-02-12, 19:52	#39
richs "Rich" Aug 2002 Benicia, California 6B6₁₆ Posts	How about this variation that I played with my brother: 19. Bxe4 Bxe4 20. Qxe4 Qd3 21. Ng3 Nd5 22. Rf3 exf4 23. Bf2 Qxe4 24. Nxe4 This looks pretty good for us.

2013-02-12, 20:50	#40
Brian-E "Brian" Jul 2007 The Netherlands 3278₁₀ Posts	[QUOTE=richs;329145]How about this variation that I played with my brother: 19. Bxe4 Bxe4 20. Qxe4 Qd3 21. Ng3 Nd5 22. Rf3 exf4 23. Bf2 Qxe4 24. Nxe4 This looks pretty good for us.[/QUOTE] As in other lines where they play 21...Nd5 I think we lose pawn in this one too: 22.Rf3 Qxe4 23.Nxe4 Nxe3 24.Rxe3 exf4. This looks worse to me than some of the lines deeply analysed by Zeta-Flux and henryzz where we still get a reasonable position. Generally speaking, I still advocate 19.Rbd1, because I prefer complications to a simpler endgame in the case where we are fighting for a draw. But I am less pessimistic than I was about the endgames which may result from 19.Bxe4 after being persuaded by Zeta-Flux and henryzz, and I will certainly support 19.Bxe4 now if that's the consensus which we are heading for.

2013-02-12, 22:10	#41
richs "Rich" Aug 2002 Benicia, California 2·859 Posts	We still have a couple of days before having to post our move. Sorry I haven't been as involved as I'd like, but real life interferes....

2013-02-13, 17:02	#42
Brian-E "Brian" Jul 2007 The Netherlands 2·11·149 Posts	Yep, we still have more than 24 hours as I write now. However, I would say we are approaching the point where if any of us has any serious new insight we won't have enough time to discuss it. Are we pretty much converging on playing the move 19.Bxe4?

2013-02-13, 20:05	#43
Zeta-Flux May 2003 7·13·17 Posts	Unless someone expresses serious concerns, by coming up with something we've missed, I vote Bxe4. (Sorry Brian! I know Rbd1 looks fun!)

2013-02-13, 20:34	#44
richs "Rich" Aug 2002 Benicia, California 1718₁₀ Posts	Bxe4 for me.