Move 19 - Page 3

henryzz · 2013-02-11, 10:20

[QUOTE=Brian-E;328859]I'm not sure whether either side can improve here, but this final position really looks hopeless to me. Black plays 33...Ra2 and ...Rxa4.[/QUOTE]
33. ... Ra2
34. Ra8 Rxa4
35. Bxb6

If I was them I would choose:
33. ... Rc2
34. Bd4 which also has escape routes for white.

Brian-E · 2013-02-11, 10:21

[QUOTE=Zeta-Flux;328900]I wouldn't play 28. Ng3. I'd play Rfe1

after
28. Rfe1 Rf4
29. Nd2 Re2
30. Rxe2 fxe2+ (if dxe2, Nxf3 and our h pawn is protected)
31. Ke3 Rxh4
32. Kxd3 Rg4
33. Nf3 Rg3 etc... (and if they try to bring the bishop into play, I think we can keep it out of the action too, and still protect our g pawn).
then our three pawn majority on the queen-side turns into an added bonus.[/QUOTE]
Yes, this line looks better for us.
To counter this, I think Black can improve earlier in the line, not advancing the f pawn prematurely where it will be weaker. Instead of 26...f3, Black plays immediately 26....Re8 27.Rbe1 Bf8 intending ...Bc5. If we play b4, they play the bishop back to g7 attacking c3 and the bishop will join the fray, perhaps by means of playing ...d2; Nxd2 Rxe1; Rxe1 Bxc3.

Brian-E · 2013-02-11, 10:27

[QUOTE=Zeta-Flux;328929]Brian-E,

I was looking at your line. What do you do in the following?

19. Rbd1 exf3
20. Rxd8 Rxd8
21. Nc1 e4
22. b3 h6

I see this line continuing something like
23. bxc3 hxg5
24. fxg5 Ng5
25. Kf2 Nxe3
26. Kxe3 Be5
and I don't see a way to stop the checkmate.

Perhaps a stronger start is:
19. Rbd1 exf3
20. Rxd8 Rxd8
21. Nc1 e4
22. Rd1 Nf5
23. Kf2 Nxe3
24. Kxe3 h6
and perhaps we can deal with the bishop threat as it arises.[/QUOTE]\
As I mentioned in post #7, I think Re1 is a necessary move for us in that line, so that we recapture on e3 with the rook, not the king. We would need to do this either on move 22, or on move 23 after playing Kf2.

Brian-E · 2013-02-11, 10:44

[QUOTE=henryzz;328942]33. ... Ra2
34. Ra8 Rxa4
35. Bxb6

If I was them I would choose:
33. ... Rc2
34. Bd4 which also has escape routes for white.[/QUOTE]
Right. That looks drawn.

But I think Black can improve in places earlier in that line. For a start there is no reason for them to play 22...Qxe4 when you indicate. A move like 22...Rae8 is more natural, piling on the pressure. But a clearer improvement, I think, is 23...Nxe3 24.Rxe3 exf4. I see no reason why they will not win with the extra pawn in this ending, and their bishop is a better piece in this type of ending than our knight.

henryzz · 2013-02-11, 14:58

[QUOTE=Brian-E;328948]Right. That looks drawn.

But I think Black can improve in places earlier in that line. For a start there is no reason for them to play 22...Qxe4 when you indicate. A move like 22...Rae8 is more natural, piling on the pressure. But a clearer improvement, I think, is 23...Nxe3 24.Rxe3 exf4. I see no reason why they will not win with the extra pawn in this ending, and their bishop is a better piece in this type of ending than our knight.[/QUOTE]

23...Nxe3 can't happen if black does anything but Qxe4 as white will do 24. Bc1. The only options are to do 22...Nxe3 or 22...Qxe4 23. Nxe4 Nxe3

After 22...Nxe3 23. Rxe3 where does blacks queen go?
After Qd(2678) we do Qxc4+ winning a pawn. There are also some nice lines for white after f5 on all of those except Qd8. This leaves Qxe4.
Qxe4 24. Rxe4 allows 25. Rxc4 or 25. fxe5 which both with white a pawn.
The only way out of this for black is several variations leading to the position gained by 24...Rxf4 25. Rexf4 exf4 26. Rxf4

This looks a really even position to me. Yes he has a bishop we have a knight but I think his pawns are much more vulnerably placed than ours. Ours are better placed to defend against a bishop than his are a knight IMO. It looks like a quite possible draw. Black should be aiming for better.

After 22...Qxe4 23. Nxe4, black seems to have all his pieces focused on f4. He can take with his pawn for free. This forces us to move our bishop which is the only downside for black on that move(no Nxe3). Black has also freed up his own bishop which was being blocked by the pawn on e5.

I will continue later explaining my moves if you have any questions. Have I missed any better lines this far? I am less confident in later moves that there aren't better lines. Can you improve on this position? I don't think we should do lines quickly leading to exchanges/draws as they are not perfect. They will make small mistakes which we can take advantage of. Black shouldn't want to play towards a drawing position however this it quite possibly what we have to aim for.

I can't see the point in 22...Rae8 for black in this position. It adds defence to the e pawn. This is unnecessary as white can't do fxe5 anyway without losing the bishop for free in 23. fxe5 Rxf1 24. Rxf1 Nxe3. In response to Rae8 I would do Bc1.

Zeta-Flux · 2013-02-11, 15:13

Okay, so I think the following is a better line under your move, but it still doesn't make me very happy and I still prefer Bxe4:

19. Rbd1 exf3
20. Rxd8 Rxd8
21. Nc1 e4
22. Kc2 Ng5
23. Re1 Nh4
and they can soon force the king to take on e3 with Ng2 (if they don't pull something even better off, by taking our f pawn if we aren't careful).

[I have to go to work, but I think we can't afford to play Re1, I think we must play Rd1, and threaten to double up on that file ourselves, thus forcing them to take before they can do the same.]

--------------

On the line I like, with your modification:

19. Bxe4 Bxe4
20. Qxe4 Qd3
21. Qxd3 cxd3
22. Ng3 Nd5
23. Bd2 Nxf4
24. Bxf4 exf4
25. Ne4 Rf5
26. h4 Re8

I prefer
27. Nf2

henryzz · 2013-02-11, 16:42

[QUOTE=Zeta-Flux;328972]
I prefer
27. Nf2[/QUOTE]

I prefer Nd6 forking the rooks in that position.

Not quite sure what the advantage in Qxd3 is. It allows the c pawn to become a passed pawn and according to the line you posted still allows them to get our bishop for their knight.

Brian-E · 2013-02-11, 19:26

Well, then, I'll come down off my precarious high horse now.:smile:

After reading both of your contributions over the last few days, including the last few posts since I posted last, I have decided that my earlier assessment of 19.Bxe4 Bxe4 20.Qxe4 Qd3 was unduly pessimistic and it is less hopeless for us than I thought.

I agree now that we can play 19.Bxe4.

Thanks for your patience with me and the hard work you've both put into this position, henryzz and Zeta-Flux.

Now, I don't know about you both, but I'm really keen to read what Rich thinks of our position when he gets time.

Zeta-Flux · 2013-02-11, 19:42

henryzz,

The only reason for Qxd3 was that Ng3 was once thought to be refuted. Now that we seem to be converging on Bxe4, I'll take a look at the Ng3 variant.

(By the way, I played the Qxd3 variant against a very decent player. We took turns switching sides. White won every time.)

Zeta-Flux · 2013-02-12, 00:25

Brian-E,

I'd rather you make us think these things through than not. I look back now, and think my strong push for g5 was a bit premature!

----

henryzz,

By the way, yes Qxd3 leads to a second passed pawn, but in practice it becomes easier to pick off on the d3 square than on c4. Whether that possibility outweighs the costs remains for further analysis.

Zeta-Flux · 2013-02-12, 02:56

Here is the line I see in the Ng3 variant:

19. Bxe4 Bxe4
20. Qxe4 Qd3
21. Ng3 Nf5

The only options seem to be Qxd3, Nxf5, or moving the bishop. The first two options force each other:

22. Nxf5 gxf5
23. Qxd3 cxd3
24. fxe5 Bxe5

vs.

22. Qxd3 cxd3
23. Nxf5 to avoid the e-pawn push! gxf5
24. fxe5 Bxe5
and we are back to the same place. They have two passed pawns. They are separated and thus weaker, but we don't have our knight to pick them off.

I can't tell who has the upper-hand.

So, the other alternative is
22. Bf2 Nxg3
23. Qxd3 (once again forced) cxd3
24. Bxg3 (or hxg3 may be better) e4
and they have a rock-solid two protected passed pawns, with a bishop of the same color as us, and two rooks. Not a good idea.

2013-02-11, 10:21	#24
Brian-E "Brian" Jul 2007 The Netherlands CCE₁₆ Posts	[QUOTE=Zeta-Flux;328900]I wouldn't play 28. Ng3. I'd play Rfe1 after 28. Rfe1 Rf4 29. Nd2 Re2 30. Rxe2 fxe2+ (if dxe2, Nxf3 and our h pawn is protected) 31. Ke3 Rxh4 32. Kxd3 Rg4 33. Nf3 Rg3 etc... (and if they try to bring the bishop into play, I think we can keep it out of the action too, and still protect our g pawn). then our three pawn majority on the queen-side turns into an added bonus.[/QUOTE] Yes, this line looks better for us. To counter this, I think Black can improve earlier in the line, not advancing the f pawn prematurely where it will be weaker. Instead of 26...f3, Black plays immediately 26....Re8 27.Rbe1 Bf8 intending ...Bc5. If we play b4, they play the bishop back to g7 attacking c3 and the bishop will join the fray, perhaps by means of playing ...d2; Nxd2 Rxe1; Rxe1 Bxc3. Last fiddled with by Brian-E on 2013-02-11 at 10:23

2013-02-11, 16:42	#29
henryzz Just call me Henry "David" Sep 2007 Liverpool (GMT/BST) 3·23·89 Posts	[QUOTE=Zeta-Flux;328972] I prefer 27. Nf2[/QUOTE] I prefer Nd6 forking the rooks in that position. Not quite sure what the advantage in Qxd3 is. It allows the c pawn to become a passed pawn and according to the line you posted still allows them to get our bishop for their knight. Last fiddled with by henryzz on 2013-02-11 at 16:47

2013-02-11, 19:42	#31
Zeta-Flux May 2003 1547₁₀ Posts	henryzz, The only reason for Qxd3 was that Ng3 was once thought to be refuted. Now that we seem to be converging on Bxe4, I'll take a look at the Ng3 variant. (By the way, I played the Qxd3 variant against a very decent player. We took turns switching sides. White won every time.) Last fiddled with by Zeta-Flux on 2013-02-11 at 19:43

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2013-02-11, 10:20	#23
henryzz Just call me Henry "David" Sep 2007 Liverpool (GMT/BST) 6141₁₀ Posts	[QUOTE=Brian-E;328859]I'm not sure whether either side can improve here, but this final position really looks hopeless to me. Black plays 33...Ra2 and ...Rxa4.[/QUOTE] 33. ... Ra2 34. Ra8 Rxa4 35. Bxb6 If I was them I would choose: 33. ... Rc2 34. Bd4 which also has escape routes for white.

2013-02-11, 10:27	#25
Brian-E "Brian" Jul 2007 The Netherlands 2×11×149 Posts	[QUOTE=Zeta-Flux;328929]Brian-E, I was looking at your line. What do you do in the following? 19. Rbd1 exf3 20. Rxd8 Rxd8 21. Nc1 e4 22. b3 h6 I see this line continuing something like 23. bxc3 hxg5 24. fxg5 Ng5 25. Kf2 Nxe3 26. Kxe3 Be5 and I don't see a way to stop the checkmate. Perhaps a stronger start is: 19. Rbd1 exf3 20. Rxd8 Rxd8 21. Nc1 e4 22. Rd1 Nf5 23. Kf2 Nxe3 24. Kxe3 h6 and perhaps we can deal with the bishop threat as it arises.[/QUOTE]\ As I mentioned in post #7, I think Re1 is a necessary move for us in that line, so that we recapture on e3 with the rook, not the king. We would need to do this either on move 22, or on move 23 after playing Kf2.

2013-02-11, 10:44	#26
Brian-E "Brian" Jul 2007 The Netherlands 3278₁₀ Posts	[QUOTE=henryzz;328942]33. ... Ra2 34. Ra8 Rxa4 35. Bxb6 If I was them I would choose: 33. ... Rc2 34. Bd4 which also has escape routes for white.[/QUOTE] Right. That looks drawn. But I think Black can improve in places earlier in that line. For a start there is no reason for them to play 22...Qxe4 when you indicate. A move like 22...Rae8 is more natural, piling on the pressure. But a clearer improvement, I think, is 23...Nxe3 24.Rxe3 exf4. I see no reason why they will not win with the extra pawn in this ending, and their bishop is a better piece in this type of ending than our knight.

2013-02-11, 14:58	#27
henryzz Just call me Henry "David" Sep 2007 Liverpool (GMT/BST) 3·23·89 Posts	[QUOTE=Brian-E;328948]Right. That looks drawn. But I think Black can improve in places earlier in that line. For a start there is no reason for them to play 22...Qxe4 when you indicate. A move like 22...Rae8 is more natural, piling on the pressure. But a clearer improvement, I think, is 23...Nxe3 24.Rxe3 exf4. I see no reason why they will not win with the extra pawn in this ending, and their bishop is a better piece in this type of ending than our knight.[/QUOTE] 23...Nxe3 can't happen if black does anything but Qxe4 as white will do 24. Bc1. The only options are to do 22...Nxe3 or 22...Qxe4 23. Nxe4 Nxe3 After 22...Nxe3 23. Rxe3 where does blacks queen go? After Qd(2678) we do Qxc4+ winning a pawn. There are also some nice lines for white after f5 on all of those except Qd8. This leaves Qxe4. Qxe4 24. Rxe4 allows 25. Rxc4 or 25. fxe5 which both with white a pawn. The only way out of this for black is several variations leading to the position gained by 24...Rxf4 25. Rexf4 exf4 26. Rxf4 This looks a really even position to me. Yes he has a bishop we have a knight but I think his pawns are much more vulnerably placed than ours. Ours are better placed to defend against a bishop than his are a knight IMO. It looks like a quite possible draw. Black should be aiming for better. After 22...Qxe4 23. Nxe4, black seems to have all his pieces focused on f4. He can take with his pawn for free. This forces us to move our bishop which is the only downside for black on that move(no Nxe3). Black has also freed up his own bishop which was being blocked by the pawn on e5. I will continue later explaining my moves if you have any questions. Have I missed any better lines this far? I am less confident in later moves that there aren't better lines. Can you improve on this position? I don't think we should do lines quickly leading to exchanges/draws as they are not perfect. They will make small mistakes which we can take advantage of. Black shouldn't want to play towards a drawing position however this it quite possibly what we have to aim for. I can't see the point in 22...Rae8 for black in this position. It adds defence to the e pawn. This is unnecessary as white can't do fxe5 anyway without losing the bishop for free in 23. fxe5 Rxf1 24. Rxf1 Nxe3. In response to Rae8 I would do Bc1.

2013-02-11, 15:13	#28
Zeta-Flux May 2003 60B₁₆ Posts	Okay, so I think the following is a better line under your move, but it still doesn't make me very happy and I still prefer Bxe4: 19. Rbd1 exf3 20. Rxd8 Rxd8 21. Nc1 e4 22. Kc2 Ng5 23. Re1 Nh4 and they can soon force the king to take on e3 with Ng2 (if they don't pull something even better off, by taking our f pawn if we aren't careful). [I have to go to work, but I think we can't afford to play Re1, I think we must play Rd1, and threaten to double up on that file ourselves, thus forcing them to take before they can do the same.] -------------- On the line I like, with your modification: 19. Bxe4 Bxe4 20. Qxe4 Qd3 21. Qxd3 cxd3 22. Ng3 Nd5 23. Bd2 Nxf4 24. Bxf4 exf4 25. Ne4 Rf5 26. h4 Re8 I prefer 27. Nf2

2013-02-11, 19:26	#30
Brian-E "Brian" Jul 2007 The Netherlands 6316₈ Posts	Well, then, I'll come down off my precarious high horse now.:smile: After reading both of your contributions over the last few days, including the last few posts since I posted last, I have decided that my earlier assessment of 19.Bxe4 Bxe4 20.Qxe4 Qd3 was unduly pessimistic and it is less hopeless for us than I thought. I agree now that we can play 19.Bxe4. Thanks for your patience with me and the hard work you've both put into this position, henryzz and Zeta-Flux. Now, I don't know about you both, but I'm really keen to read what Rich thinks of our position when he gets time.

2013-02-12, 00:25	#32
Zeta-Flux May 2003 7·13·17 Posts	Brian-E, I'd rather you make us think these things through than not. I look back now, and think my strong push for g5 was a bit premature! ---- henryzz, By the way, yes Qxd3 leads to a second passed pawn, but in practice it becomes easier to pick off on the d3 square than on c4. Whether that possibility outweighs the costs remains for further analysis.

2013-02-12, 02:56	#33
Zeta-Flux May 2003 7×13×17 Posts	Here is the line I see in the Ng3 variant: 19. Bxe4 Bxe4 20. Qxe4 Qd3 21. Ng3 Nf5 The only options seem to be Qxd3, Nxf5, or moving the bishop. The first two options force each other: 22. Nxf5 gxf5 23. Qxd3 cxd3 24. fxe5 Bxe5 vs. 22. Qxd3 cxd3 23. Nxf5 to avoid the e-pawn push! gxf5 24. fxe5 Bxe5 and we are back to the same place. They have two passed pawns. They are separated and thus weaker, but we don't have our knight to pick them off. I can't tell who has the upper-hand. So, the other alternative is 22. Bf2 Nxg3 23. Qxd3 (once again forced) cxd3 24. Bxg3 (or hxg3 may be better) e4 and they have a rock-solid two protected passed pawns, with a bishop of the same color as us, and two rooks. Not a good idea.