Move 19 - Page 2

Brian-E · 2013-02-10, 18:10

[QUOTE=Zeta-Flux;328742]On the line I like:

19. Bxe4 Bxe4
20. Qxe4 Qd3
21. Qxd3 cxd3
22. Ng3 Nd5
23. Bd2 Nxf4
24. Bxf4 exf4
25. Ne4 Rf5
26. h4 (not Rbd1 yet) f3 (now not Re8)
27. Rbd1 and we are only down a pawn (and a knight vs. bishop). It seems like a draw.[/QUOTE]
We disagree on the assessment here. I think Black should win. 27...Re8 28.Ng3 (preventing invasion on e2 and mopping up our Q-side pawns) Rf4 29.Rxd3 Rxh4 followed by ...Rg4.

[QUOTE]On the line Brian-E likes, with the extra sacrifice:

19. Rbd1 exf3
20. Rxd8 Raxd8
21. fxe5 fxe2
22. Rxf8 Rxf8
23. Qxe2
at this point we have a queen to a pawn, knight, bishop, and rook. They can play
23. ... Bd5
24. Qg5 Rf6! (blocks out the queen, and we lose another pawn).
25. Bd4 Nc6
26. Qg3 Nxe5 etc...[/QUOTE]Yes, we lose another pawn. But that is not really the issue. We have a position in which Black will find it very difficult to make any progress without allowing our queen into their position.

It seems we have a choice. An endgame which is lost for us (yes, I know you both disagree with me there), or a very complicated position with queen against other pieces. In principle, when you have the worse position you should go for complications. That is my thinking.

It looks like we may have to agree to disagree and vote on our move.:smile:

[QUOTE=henryzz;328757]On the Bxe4 line it looks like their bishop is the wrong colour to help get the pawns promoted. I agree I think we could get a draw.[/QUOTE]
Obviously I must disagree with you.:smile:
There are many black pawns still on the board. It's not as if they have only their h-pawn left (when the bishop would indeed be the "wrong" one). The bishop is an excellent long range piece and far superior to our knight.

[QUOTE]Just to throw another line into the equation. What about:
19. Bxe4 Bxe4
20. Qxe4 Qd3
21. Ng3 Nd5
22. Rbe1 Qxe4
23. Nxe4 exf4
24. Bf2 Rad8
25. Rd1 Rd7
26. Rd2 Re8
27. Re1 Rde7
28. Rxd5 Rxe4
29. Rxe4 Rxe4
30. Kg2 Re2
31. Rd8+ Bf8
32. Kf3 Rxb2
33. a4[/QUOTE]22...exf4 wins a piece here.

Brian-E · 2013-02-10, 18:31

[QUOTE=Brian-E;328846]22...exf4 wins a piece here.[/QUOTE]
Sorry, I missed something here with this hasty put-down of your suggested line. It doesn't win a piece. I'll have a look at your suggestion properly now, David.:sorry:

Zeta-Flux · 2013-02-10, 18:44

[QUOTE]Yes, we lose another pawn. But that is not really the issue. We have a position in which Black will find it very difficult to make any progress without allowing our queen into their position.[/QUOTE]I don't think it is all that difficult to keep the queen out. For example, if we ever lose the g pawn (which seems likely, as our queen can't defend it well enough) they put one bishop on f7 and another bishop on f6, and the king at g7, and there is no way in. From there, there are numerous options they have to move things around. I feel it is almost certainly a loss. Especially when the moves are going slowly, and they have time to look for perpetual checks.

[QUOTE]We disagree on the assessment here. I think Black should win. 27...Re8 28.Ng3 (preventing invasion on e2 and mopping up our Q-side pawns) Rf4 29.Rxd3 Rxh4 followed by ...Rg4.[/QUOTE]We wouldn't play 28. Ng3. We'd play Nd6, forking the rooks. The invasion would be pointless then, because we'd pick off the two passed pawns with ease, and harass their king shortly thereafter. (The other added bonus to this position is that our king can quickly get into play at the crucial places. Their king is far away from the action, as is their bishop.)

Brian-E · 2013-02-10, 18:58

[QUOTE=Zeta-Flux;328854]We wouldn't play 28. Ng3. We'd play Nd6, forking the rooks. The invasion would be pointless then, because we'd pick off the two passed pawns with ease, and harass their king shortly thereafter. (The other added bonus to this position is that our king can quickly get into play at the crucial places. Their king is far away from the action, as is their bishop.)[/QUOTE]
Whoops, yes. I changed my mind at the last minute, originally looking at 27...Rf4 28.Nf2 (otherwise ...Rg4+ and invasion) Re8 29.Rxd3 Re2 30.Rd8+ Bf8 31.Rd7 Rxb2 32.Rxa7 Rxh4. I thought Black should win this. But then I had a brainstorm and decided playing ...Re8 first would be more clearcut so that our knight is "forced to g3" instead of f2 (but of course it isn't, it forks the rooks).

Brian-E · 2013-02-10, 19:04

[QUOTE=Zeta-Flux;328854]I don't think it is all that difficult to keep the queen out. For example, if we ever lose the g pawn (which seems likely, as our queen can't defend it well enough) they put one bishop on f7 and another bishop on f6, and the king at g7, and there is no way in. From there, there are numerous options they have to move things around. I feel it is almost certainly a loss. Especially when the moves are going slowly, and they have time to look for perpetual checks.[/QUOTE]
I'll just respond that while I agree we are fighting for a draw, I consider that the queen-versus-other-pieces set-up in general gives us better chances than a dead-lost endgame (which I know you disagree is dead-lost). I don't know whether we should sacrifice our knight at all: that was just an impulsive suggestion and we may do better to keep it on the board by playing it to c1 and blockade the passed pawns as best we can.

Brian-E · 2013-02-10, 19:10

[QUOTE=henryzz;328757]Just to throw another line into the equation. What about:
19. Bxe4 Bxe4
20. Qxe4 Qd3
21. Ng3 Nd5
22. Rbe1 Qxe4
23. Nxe4 exf4
24. Bf2 Rad8
25. Rd1 Rd7
26. Rd2 Re8
27. Re1 Rde7
28. Rxd5 Rxe4
29. Rxe4 Rxe4
30. Kg2 Re2
31. Rd8+ Bf8
32. Kf3 Rxb2
33. a4[/QUOTE]
I'm not sure whether either side can improve here, but this final position really looks hopeless to me. Black plays 33...Ra2 and ...Rxa4.

Zeta-Flux · 2013-02-10, 19:33

On the line I like, after f3 why not Kf2?

Brian-E · 2013-02-10, 20:19

[QUOTE=Zeta-Flux;328863]On the line I like, after f3 why not Kf2?[/QUOTE]
You mean 19.Bxe4 Bxe4 20.Qxe4 Qd3 21.Qxd3 cxd3 22.Ng3 Nd5 23.Bd2 Nxf4 24.Bxf4 exf4 25.Ne4 Rf5 26.h4 f3 27.Kf2, right?
In this case I think they [I]can[/I] play ...Re8 without fear of the fork.
27...Re8 28.Ng3 (28.Nd6? Re2+ 29.Kg3 Be5+ or 29.Kg1 Rf4 with a mating attack, 28.Nd2? Re2+, or 28.Rbe1 Rf4 are no better) Rf4 intending ...Be5 and ...Rg4 looks hopeless to me.

richs · 2013-02-10, 23:07

I've been following along but will put my two cents in on Monday when I have more time to work on this move.

Zeta-Flux · 2013-02-10, 23:19

[QUOTE=Brian-E;328871]You mean 19.Bxe4 Bxe4 20.Qxe4 Qd3 21.Qxd3 cxd3 22.Ng3 Nd5 23.Bd2 Nxf4 24.Bxf4 exf4 25.Ne4 Rf5 26.h4 f3 27.Kf2, right?
In this case I think they [I]can[/I] play ...Re8 without fear of the fork.
27...Re8 28.Ng3 (28.Nd6? Re2+ 29.Kg3 Be5+ or 29.Kg1 Rf4 with a mating attack, 28.Nd2? Re2+, or 28.Rbe1 Rf4 are no better) Rf4 intending ...Be5 and ...Rg4 looks hopeless to me.[/QUOTE]I wouldn't play 28. Ng3. I'd play Rfe1

after
28. Rfe1 Rf4
29. Nd2 Re2
30. Rxe2 fxe2+ (if dxe2, Nxf3 and our h pawn is protected)
31. Ke3 Rxh4
32. Kxd3 Rg4
33. Nf3 Rg3 etc... (and if they try to bring the bishop into play, I think we can keep it out of the action too, and still protect our g pawn).
then our three pawn majority on the queen-side turns into an added bonus.

Zeta-Flux · 2013-02-11, 05:16

Brian-E,

I was looking at your line. What do you do in the following?

19. Rbd1 exf3
20. Rxd8 Rxd8
21. Nc1 e4
22. b3 h6

I see this line continuing something like
23. bxc3 hxg5
24. fxg5 Ng5
25. Kf2 Nxe3
26. Kxe3 Be5
and I don't see a way to stop the checkmate.

Perhaps a stronger start is:
19. Rbd1 exf3
20. Rxd8 Rxd8
21. Nc1 e4
22. Rd1 Nf5
23. Kf2 Nxe3
24. Kxe3 h6
and perhaps we can deal with the bishop threat as it arises.

2013-02-10, 18:44	#14
Zeta-Flux May 2003 7·13·17 Posts	[QUOTE]Yes, we lose another pawn. But that is not really the issue. We have a position in which Black will find it very difficult to make any progress without allowing our queen into their position.[/QUOTE]I don't think it is all that difficult to keep the queen out. For example, if we ever lose the g pawn (which seems likely, as our queen can't defend it well enough) they put one bishop on f7 and another bishop on f6, and the king at g7, and there is no way in. From there, there are numerous options they have to move things around. I feel it is almost certainly a loss. Especially when the moves are going slowly, and they have time to look for perpetual checks. [QUOTE]We disagree on the assessment here. I think Black should win. 27...Re8 28.Ng3 (preventing invasion on e2 and mopping up our Q-side pawns) Rf4 29.Rxd3 Rxh4 followed by ...Rg4.[/QUOTE]We wouldn't play 28. Ng3. We'd play Nd6, forking the rooks. The invasion would be pointless then, because we'd pick off the two passed pawns with ease, and harass their king shortly thereafter. (The other added bonus to this position is that our king can quickly get into play at the crucial places. Their king is far away from the action, as is their bishop.) Last fiddled with by Zeta-Flux on 2013-02-10 at 18:52

2013-02-10, 23:19	#21
Zeta-Flux May 2003 7×13×17 Posts	[QUOTE=Brian-E;328871]You mean 19.Bxe4 Bxe4 20.Qxe4 Qd3 21.Qxd3 cxd3 22.Ng3 Nd5 23.Bd2 Nxf4 24.Bxf4 exf4 25.Ne4 Rf5 26.h4 f3 27.Kf2, right? In this case I think they [I]can[/I] play ...Re8 without fear of the fork. 27...Re8 28.Ng3 (28.Nd6? Re2+ 29.Kg3 Be5+ or 29.Kg1 Rf4 with a mating attack, 28.Nd2? Re2+, or 28.Rbe1 Rf4 are no better) Rf4 intending ...Be5 and ...Rg4 looks hopeless to me.[/QUOTE]I wouldn't play 28. Ng3. I'd play Rfe1 after 28. Rfe1 Rf4 29. Nd2 Re2 30. Rxe2 fxe2+ (if dxe2, Nxf3 and our h pawn is protected) 31. Ke3 Rxh4 32. Kxd3 Rg4 33. Nf3 Rg3 etc... (and if they try to bring the bishop into play, I think we can keep it out of the action too, and still protect our g pawn). then our three pawn majority on the queen-side turns into an added bonus. Last fiddled with by Zeta-Flux on 2013-02-10 at 23:33

Similar Threads
Thread	Thread Starter	Forum	Replies	Last Post
Stockfish game: "Move 9 poll", not "move 2^74,207,281-1 discussion"	MooMoo2	Other Chess Games	1	2016-10-25 18:03
Stockfish game: "Move 8 poll", not "move 3.14159 discussion"	MooMoo2	Other Chess Games	5	2016-10-22 01:55
Stockfish game: "Move 5 poll", not "move 0 discussion"	MooMoo2	Other Chess Games	0	2016-10-05 15:50
Stockfish game: "Move 4 poll", not "move 100 discussion"	MooMoo2	Other Chess Games	0	2016-09-28 19:51
Stockfish game: "Move 2 poll", not "move 2 discussion"	MooMoo2	Other Chess Games	0	2016-09-19 19:56

2013-02-10, 18:10	#12
Brian-E "Brian" Jul 2007 The Netherlands 2×11×149 Posts	[QUOTE=Zeta-Flux;328742]On the line I like: 19. Bxe4 Bxe4 20. Qxe4 Qd3 21. Qxd3 cxd3 22. Ng3 Nd5 23. Bd2 Nxf4 24. Bxf4 exf4 25. Ne4 Rf5 26. h4 (not Rbd1 yet) f3 (now not Re8) 27. Rbd1 and we are only down a pawn (and a knight vs. bishop). It seems like a draw.[/QUOTE] We disagree on the assessment here. I think Black should win. 27...Re8 28.Ng3 (preventing invasion on e2 and mopping up our Q-side pawns) Rf4 29.Rxd3 Rxh4 followed by ...Rg4. [QUOTE]On the line Brian-E likes, with the extra sacrifice: 19. Rbd1 exf3 20. Rxd8 Raxd8 21. fxe5 fxe2 22. Rxf8 Rxf8 23. Qxe2 at this point we have a queen to a pawn, knight, bishop, and rook. They can play 23. ... Bd5 24. Qg5 Rf6! (blocks out the queen, and we lose another pawn). 25. Bd4 Nc6 26. Qg3 Nxe5 etc...[/QUOTE]Yes, we lose another pawn. But that is not really the issue. We have a position in which Black will find it very difficult to make any progress without allowing our queen into their position. It seems we have a choice. An endgame which is lost for us (yes, I know you both disagree with me there), or a very complicated position with queen against other pieces. In principle, when you have the worse position you should go for complications. That is my thinking. It looks like we may have to agree to disagree and vote on our move.:smile: [QUOTE=henryzz;328757]On the Bxe4 line it looks like their bishop is the wrong colour to help get the pawns promoted. I agree I think we could get a draw.[/QUOTE] Obviously I must disagree with you.:smile: There are many black pawns still on the board. It's not as if they have only their h-pawn left (when the bishop would indeed be the "wrong" one). The bishop is an excellent long range piece and far superior to our knight. [QUOTE]Just to throw another line into the equation. What about: 19. Bxe4 Bxe4 20. Qxe4 Qd3 21. Ng3 Nd5 22. Rbe1 Qxe4 23. Nxe4 exf4 24. Bf2 Rad8 25. Rd1 Rd7 26. Rd2 Re8 27. Re1 Rde7 28. Rxd5 Rxe4 29. Rxe4 Rxe4 30. Kg2 Re2 31. Rd8+ Bf8 32. Kf3 Rxb2 33. a4[/QUOTE]22...exf4 wins a piece here.

2013-02-10, 18:31	#13
Brian-E "Brian" Jul 2007 The Netherlands 2·11·149 Posts	[QUOTE=Brian-E;328846]22...exf4 wins a piece here.[/QUOTE] Sorry, I missed something here with this hasty put-down of your suggested line. It doesn't win a piece. I'll have a look at your suggestion properly now, David.:sorry:

2013-02-10, 18:58	#15
Brian-E "Brian" Jul 2007 The Netherlands 2×11×149 Posts	[QUOTE=Zeta-Flux;328854]We wouldn't play 28. Ng3. We'd play Nd6, forking the rooks. The invasion would be pointless then, because we'd pick off the two passed pawns with ease, and harass their king shortly thereafter. (The other added bonus to this position is that our king can quickly get into play at the crucial places. Their king is far away from the action, as is their bishop.)[/QUOTE] Whoops, yes. I changed my mind at the last minute, originally looking at 27...Rf4 28.Nf2 (otherwise ...Rg4+ and invasion) Re8 29.Rxd3 Re2 30.Rd8+ Bf8 31.Rd7 Rxb2 32.Rxa7 Rxh4. I thought Black should win this. But then I had a brainstorm and decided playing ...Re8 first would be more clearcut so that our knight is "forced to g3" instead of f2 (but of course it isn't, it forks the rooks).

2013-02-10, 19:04	#16
Brian-E "Brian" Jul 2007 The Netherlands 6316₈ Posts	[QUOTE=Zeta-Flux;328854]I don't think it is all that difficult to keep the queen out. For example, if we ever lose the g pawn (which seems likely, as our queen can't defend it well enough) they put one bishop on f7 and another bishop on f6, and the king at g7, and there is no way in. From there, there are numerous options they have to move things around. I feel it is almost certainly a loss. Especially when the moves are going slowly, and they have time to look for perpetual checks.[/QUOTE] I'll just respond that while I agree we are fighting for a draw, I consider that the queen-versus-other-pieces set-up in general gives us better chances than a dead-lost endgame (which I know you disagree is dead-lost). I don't know whether we should sacrifice our knight at all: that was just an impulsive suggestion and we may do better to keep it on the board by playing it to c1 and blockade the passed pawns as best we can.

2013-02-10, 19:10	#17
Brian-E "Brian" Jul 2007 The Netherlands 2·11·149 Posts	[QUOTE=henryzz;328757]Just to throw another line into the equation. What about: 19. Bxe4 Bxe4 20. Qxe4 Qd3 21. Ng3 Nd5 22. Rbe1 Qxe4 23. Nxe4 exf4 24. Bf2 Rad8 25. Rd1 Rd7 26. Rd2 Re8 27. Re1 Rde7 28. Rxd5 Rxe4 29. Rxe4 Rxe4 30. Kg2 Re2 31. Rd8+ Bf8 32. Kf3 Rxb2 33. a4[/QUOTE] I'm not sure whether either side can improve here, but this final position really looks hopeless to me. Black plays 33...Ra2 and ...Rxa4.

2013-02-10, 19:33	#18
Zeta-Flux May 2003 3013₈ Posts	On the line I like, after f3 why not Kf2?

2013-02-10, 20:19	#19
Brian-E "Brian" Jul 2007 The Netherlands 2×11×149 Posts	[QUOTE=Zeta-Flux;328863]On the line I like, after f3 why not Kf2?[/QUOTE] You mean 19.Bxe4 Bxe4 20.Qxe4 Qd3 21.Qxd3 cxd3 22.Ng3 Nd5 23.Bd2 Nxf4 24.Bxf4 exf4 25.Ne4 Rf5 26.h4 f3 27.Kf2, right? In this case I think they [I]can[/I] play ...Re8 without fear of the fork. 27...Re8 28.Ng3 (28.Nd6? Re2+ 29.Kg3 Be5+ or 29.Kg1 Rf4 with a mating attack, 28.Nd2? Re2+, or 28.Rbe1 Rf4 are no better) Rf4 intending ...Be5 and ...Rg4 looks hopeless to me.

2013-02-10, 23:07	#20
richs "Rich" Aug 2002 Benicia, California 2×859 Posts	I've been following along but will put my two cents in on Monday when I have more time to work on this move.

2013-02-11, 05:16	#22
Zeta-Flux May 2003 7·13·17 Posts	Brian-E, I was looking at your line. What do you do in the following? 19. Rbd1 exf3 20. Rxd8 Rxd8 21. Nc1 e4 22. b3 h6 I see this line continuing something like 23. bxc3 hxg5 24. fxg5 Ng5 25. Kf2 Nxe3 26. Kxe3 Be5 and I don't see a way to stop the checkmate. Perhaps a stronger start is: 19. Rbd1 exf3 20. Rxd8 Rxd8 21. Nc1 e4 22. Rd1 Nf5 23. Kf2 Nxe3 24. Kxe3 h6 and perhaps we can deal with the bishop threat as it arises.