Move 19

Zeta-Flux · 2013-02-08, 03:15

Woohoo. I thought I'd start a thread for once.

The main moves seem to be Bxe4 or R(bf)d1. In my opinion Bxe4 leads to a position where we are much stronger. Under R(bf)d1 we don't win material, and they end up with two strong passed pawns defending each other. We *may* be able to block them up, but that would divert all our pieces to that task, and we're down in terms of the number of pieces.

Whereas, after Bxe4 we seem to end up with an even position.
19. Bxe4 Bxe4
20. Qxe4 Qd3
21. Qxd3 cxd3
22. Ng3 (to prevent the e pawn push) Nd5
23. Bd2 exf4
24. Ne4 and we'll soon take one of their passed pawns back (either with Nf2 attacking the d pawn, or c4 making them lose a defender on the f pawn), making it even material. Or, we could play big, and prepare to double our rooks on the f rank by playing Rf3, simultaneously attacking their d pawn.

They will have a passed pawn left, but in many ways I like our position. Our g pawn is incredibly weak, but so is their bishop (for now) and our rooks can soon dominate the open ranks.

henryzz · 2013-02-08, 10:09

I pretty much came to the conclusion last move that Bxe4 was best this move.

Brian-E · 2013-02-08, 10:36

For the moment I need a lot of persuading here. What do you both/all have in mind after 23...Nxf4 which looks much stronger to me?
After 19.Bxe4 Bxe4 20.Qxe4 Qd3 21.Qxd3 cxd3 22.Ng3 Nd5 23.Bd2 Nxf4 24.Bxf4 (otherwise Black plays ...Ne6 and consolidates) exf4 25.Ne4 Rf5 26.Rbd1 Re8 our position looks awful. Can we improve on this?
Until persuaded that this line is playable, I advocate 19.Rbd1 for now.

Zeta-Flux · 2013-02-08, 15:39

On the line you gave, instead of 24. Bxf4, we can play 24. Rf3.

-----

Here is the line I see happening under your move:

19. Rbd1 exf3
20. Rxd8 Raxd8
21. Nc1 e4

they now have two protected passed pawns, more pieces to attack with, and we are stuck trying to block their pawns.

What do we do in response to b5, for example?

Brian-E · 2013-02-08, 15:56

[QUOTE=Zeta-Flux;328556]On the line you gave, instead of 24. Bxf4, we can play 24. Rf3.[/QUOTE]
Then 24...Ne2+ 25.Kf2/g2 Rxf3 26.Kxf3 Nxg3 27.Kxg3 Rf8 to be followed by ...e4, ...Rf3, ...Be5. I don't think we can save this ending.

[QUOTE]Here is the line I see happening under your move:

19. Rbd1 exf3
20. Rxd8 Raxd8
21. Nc1 e4

they now have two protected passed pawns, more pieces to attack with, and we are stuck trying to block their pawns.

What do we do in response to b5, for example?[/QUOTE]...b5 is answered by Bxa7 followed by a4.
I agree that they may play this line. But I think there are chances for both sides. We play Kf2 to help the blockade, and we play b3 to bring the knight back into play and generate play on the queenside with queen and knight. I am not pretending we have an easy ride, but I currently consider the lines following 19.Bxe4 Bxe4 20.Qxe4 Qd3 to lead to a very clear advantage for Black rather than the complicated struggle that Black's queen sacrifice after 19.Rbd1 leads to.

Zeta-Flux · 2013-02-08, 16:47

Let's focus on what I think is best play. Here is one possibility to start with:

22. b3 Nf5
23. Kf2 h6
24. bxc3 hxg5
25. fxg5 Be5
26. Rd1 Nxe3
27. Kxe3 Bf4+
28. Kd2 or Kf2 e3+
29. Ke1 Rxd1+
30. Qxd1 e2
31. Qd7 Bxc1
32. Qxb7 f2+
etc...

Brian-E · 2013-02-08, 17:03

[QUOTE=Zeta-Flux;328567]Let's focus on what I think is best play. Here is one possibility to start with:

22. b3 Nf5
23. Kf2 h6
24. bxc3 hxg5
25. fxg5 Be5
26. Rd1 Nxe3
27. Kxe3 Bf4+
28. Kd2 or Kf2 e3+
29. Ke1 Rxd1+
30. Qxd1 e2
31. Qd7 Bxc1
32. Qxb7 f2+
etc...[/QUOTE]
In that line I think we can give perpetual check with 32.Qe6+, then checking on e8, e7 and e5 as appropriate. But I also think we can improve here: we must in any case play Re1 at some point, on move 26 in your sequence perhaps, to blockade the pawns better and stop them getting so far. We [I]will [/I]need to play the rook to d1 if they threaten to double rooks on the d file, but if they do that we should have more time to generate counterplay with our queen.

Brian-E · 2013-02-08, 17:26

Just another suggestion: it might be most prudent to sacrifice another piece to get rid of the dangerous passed pawns. One line is: 19.Rbd1 exf3 20.Rxd8 Raxd8 21.fxe5 fxe2 22.Rxf8+ Rxf8 23.Qxe2 and if Black protects the pawn on c4 we play Qg4 getting activity and indirectly protecting our pawn on e5 because of the threat of Qe6+. Not at all easy for Black to win, I think.

EDIT: Black can play 23...Bd5 cutting out our getting the queen to e6, but we can then still play 24.Qg4 threatening to come into d7. We are still in the game.

Zeta-Flux · 2013-02-09, 21:47

What about 19. Bg2. (Nevermind. ... Qd3!)

Zeta-Flux · 2013-02-09, 22:19

On the line I like:

19. Bxe4 Bxe4
20. Qxe4 Qd3
21. Qxd3 cxd3
22. Ng3 Nd5
23. Bd2 Nxf4
24. Bxf4 exf4
25. Ne4 Rf5
26. h4 (not Rbd1 yet) f3 (now not Re8)
27. Rbd1 and we are only down a pawn (and a knight vs. bishop). It seems like a draw.

On the line Brian-E likes, with the extra sacrifice:

19. Rbd1 exf3
20. Rxd8 Raxd8
21. fxe5 fxe2
22. Rxf8 Rxf8
23. Qxe2
at this point we have a queen to a pawn, knight, bishop, and rook. They can play
23. ... Bd5
24. Qg5 Rf6! (blocks out the queen, and we lose another pawn).
25. Bd4 Nc6
26. Qg3 Nxe5 etc...

henryzz · 2013-02-10, 00:31

[QUOTE=Zeta-Flux;328742]On the line I like:

19. Bxe4 Bxe4
20. Qxe4 Qd3
21. Qxd3 cxd3
22. Ng3 Nd5
23. Bd2 Nxf4
24. Bxf4 exf4
25. Ne4 Rf5
26. h4 (not Rbd1 yet) f3 (now not Re8)
27. Rbd1 and we are only down a pawn (and a knight vs. bishop). It seems like a draw.

On the line Brian-E likes, with the extra sacrifice:

19. Rbd1 exf3
20. Rxd8 Raxd8
21. fxe5 fxe2
22. Rxf8 Rxf8
23. Qxe2
at this point we have a queen to a pawn, knight, bishop, and rook. They can play
23. ... Bd5
24. Qg5 Rf6! (blocks out the queen, and we lose another pawn).
25. Bd4 Nc6
26. Qg3 Nxe5 etc...[/QUOTE]
On 24 the queen cannot move to g5 as it is on e2. Did you mean 24. Qg4 Rf5?
I don't like that position they have too much extra material.

On the Bxe4 line it looks like their bishop is the wrong colour to help get the pawns promoted. I agree I think we could get a draw.

Just to throw another line into the equation. What about:
19. Bxe4 Bxe4
20. Qxe4 Qd3
21. Ng3 Nd5
22. Rbe1 Qxe4
23. Nxe4 exf4
24. Bf2 Rad8
25. Rd1 Rd7
26. Rd2 Re8
27. Re1 Rde7
28. Rxd5 Rxe4
29. Rxe4 Rxe4
30. Kg2 Re2
31. Rd8+ Bf8
32. Kf3 Rxb2
33. a4

2013-02-08, 03:15	#1
Zeta-Flux May 2003 7×13×17 Posts	Move 19 Woohoo. I thought I'd start a thread for once. The main moves seem to be Bxe4 or R(bf)d1. In my opinion Bxe4 leads to a position where we are much stronger. Under R(bf)d1 we don't win material, and they end up with two strong passed pawns defending each other. We may be able to block them up, but that would divert all our pieces to that task, and we're down in terms of the number of pieces. Whereas, after Bxe4 we seem to end up with an even position. 19. Bxe4 Bxe4 20. Qxe4 Qd3 21. Qxd3 cxd3 22. Ng3 (to prevent the e pawn push) Nd5 23. Bd2 exf4 24. Ne4 and we'll soon take one of their passed pawns back (either with Nf2 attacking the d pawn, or c4 making them lose a defender on the f pawn), making it even material. Or, we could play big, and prepare to double our rooks on the f rank by playing Rf3, simultaneously attacking their d pawn. They will have a passed pawn left, but in many ways I like our position. Our g pawn is incredibly weak, but so is their bishop (for now) and our rooks can soon dominate the open ranks.

2013-02-08, 10:36	#3
Brian-E "Brian" Jul 2007 The Netherlands 6316₈ Posts	For the moment I need a lot of persuading here. What do you both/all have in mind after 23...Nxf4 which looks much stronger to me? After 19.Bxe4 Bxe4 20.Qxe4 Qd3 21.Qxd3 cxd3 22.Ng3 Nd5 23.Bd2 Nxf4 24.Bxf4 (otherwise Black plays ...Ne6 and consolidates) exf4 25.Ne4 Rf5 26.Rbd1 Re8 our position looks awful. Can we improve on this? Until persuaded that this line is playable, I advocate 19.Rbd1 for now. Last fiddled with by Brian-E on 2013-02-08 at 10:40 Reason: errors

2013-02-08, 17:26	#8
Brian-E "Brian" Jul 2007 The Netherlands 2×11×149 Posts	Just another suggestion: it might be most prudent to sacrifice another piece to get rid of the dangerous passed pawns. One line is: 19.Rbd1 exf3 20.Rxd8 Raxd8 21.fxe5 fxe2 22.Rxf8+ Rxf8 23.Qxe2 and if Black protects the pawn on c4 we play Qg4 getting activity and indirectly protecting our pawn on e5 because of the threat of Qe6+. Not at all easy for Black to win, I think. EDIT: Black can play 23...Bd5 cutting out our getting the queen to e6, but we can then still play 24.Qg4 threatening to come into d7. We are still in the game. Last fiddled with by Brian-E on 2013-02-08 at 17:35

2013-02-09, 21:47	#9
Zeta-Flux May 2003 11000001011₂ Posts	What about 19. Bg2. (Nevermind. ... Qd3!) Last fiddled with by Zeta-Flux on 2013-02-09 at 21:50

2013-02-09, 22:19	#10
Zeta-Flux May 2003 7×13×17 Posts	On the line I like: 19. Bxe4 Bxe4 20. Qxe4 Qd3 21. Qxd3 cxd3 22. Ng3 Nd5 23. Bd2 Nxf4 24. Bxf4 exf4 25. Ne4 Rf5 26. h4 (not Rbd1 yet) f3 (now not Re8) 27. Rbd1 and we are only down a pawn (and a knight vs. bishop). It seems like a draw. On the line Brian-E likes, with the extra sacrifice: 19. Rbd1 exf3 20. Rxd8 Raxd8 21. fxe5 fxe2 22. Rxf8 Rxf8 23. Qxe2 at this point we have a queen to a pawn, knight, bishop, and rook. They can play 23. ... Bd5 24. Qg5 Rf6! (blocks out the queen, and we lose another pawn). 25. Bd4 Nc6 26. Qg3 Nxe5 etc... Last fiddled with by Zeta-Flux on 2013-02-09 at 22:21

2013-02-08, 10:09	#2
henryzz Just call me Henry "David" Sep 2007 Liverpool (GMT/BST) 3·23·89 Posts	I pretty much came to the conclusion last move that Bxe4 was best this move.

2013-02-08, 15:39	#4
Zeta-Flux May 2003 7·13·17 Posts	On the line you gave, instead of 24. Bxf4, we can play 24. Rf3. ----- Here is the line I see happening under your move: 19. Rbd1 exf3 20. Rxd8 Raxd8 21. Nc1 e4 they now have two protected passed pawns, more pieces to attack with, and we are stuck trying to block their pawns. What do we do in response to b5, for example?

2013-02-08, 15:56	#5
Brian-E "Brian" Jul 2007 The Netherlands 2·11·149 Posts	[QUOTE=Zeta-Flux;328556]On the line you gave, instead of 24. Bxf4, we can play 24. Rf3.[/QUOTE] Then 24...Ne2+ 25.Kf2/g2 Rxf3 26.Kxf3 Nxg3 27.Kxg3 Rf8 to be followed by ...e4, ...Rf3, ...Be5. I don't think we can save this ending. [QUOTE]Here is the line I see happening under your move: 19. Rbd1 exf3 20. Rxd8 Raxd8 21. Nc1 e4 they now have two protected passed pawns, more pieces to attack with, and we are stuck trying to block their pawns. What do we do in response to b5, for example?[/QUOTE]...b5 is answered by Bxa7 followed by a4. I agree that they may play this line. But I think there are chances for both sides. We play Kf2 to help the blockade, and we play b3 to bring the knight back into play and generate play on the queenside with queen and knight. I am not pretending we have an easy ride, but I currently consider the lines following 19.Bxe4 Bxe4 20.Qxe4 Qd3 to lead to a very clear advantage for Black rather than the complicated struggle that Black's queen sacrifice after 19.Rbd1 leads to.

2013-02-08, 16:47	#6
Zeta-Flux May 2003 1547₁₀ Posts	Let's focus on what I think is best play. Here is one possibility to start with: 22. b3 Nf5 23. Kf2 h6 24. bxc3 hxg5 25. fxg5 Be5 26. Rd1 Nxe3 27. Kxe3 Bf4+ 28. Kd2 or Kf2 e3+ 29. Ke1 Rxd1+ 30. Qxd1 e2 31. Qd7 Bxc1 32. Qxb7 f2+ etc...

2013-02-08, 17:03	#7
Brian-E "Brian" Jul 2007 The Netherlands 2·11·149 Posts	[QUOTE=Zeta-Flux;328567]Let's focus on what I think is best play. Here is one possibility to start with: 22. b3 Nf5 23. Kf2 h6 24. bxc3 hxg5 25. fxg5 Be5 26. Rd1 Nxe3 27. Kxe3 Bf4+ 28. Kd2 or Kf2 e3+ 29. Ke1 Rxd1+ 30. Qxd1 e2 31. Qd7 Bxc1 32. Qxb7 f2+ etc...[/QUOTE] In that line I think we can give perpetual check with 32.Qe6+, then checking on e8, e7 and e5 as appropriate. But I also think we can improve here: we must in any case play Re1 at some point, on move 26 in your sequence perhaps, to blockade the pawns better and stop them getting so far. We [I]will [/I]need to play the rook to d1 if they threaten to double rooks on the d file, but if they do that we should have more time to generate counterplay with our queen.

2013-02-10, 00:31	#11
henryzz Just call me Henry "David" Sep 2007 Liverpool (GMT/BST) 17FD₁₆ Posts	[QUOTE=Zeta-Flux;328742]On the line I like: 19. Bxe4 Bxe4 20. Qxe4 Qd3 21. Qxd3 cxd3 22. Ng3 Nd5 23. Bd2 Nxf4 24. Bxf4 exf4 25. Ne4 Rf5 26. h4 (not Rbd1 yet) f3 (now not Re8) 27. Rbd1 and we are only down a pawn (and a knight vs. bishop). It seems like a draw. On the line Brian-E likes, with the extra sacrifice: 19. Rbd1 exf3 20. Rxd8 Raxd8 21. fxe5 fxe2 22. Rxf8 Rxf8 23. Qxe2 at this point we have a queen to a pawn, knight, bishop, and rook. They can play 23. ... Bd5 24. Qg5 Rf6! (blocks out the queen, and we lose another pawn). 25. Bd4 Nc6 26. Qg3 Nxe5 etc...[/QUOTE] On 24 the queen cannot move to g5 as it is on e2. Did you mean 24. Qg4 Rf5? I don't like that position they have too much extra material. On the Bxe4 line it looks like their bishop is the wrong colour to help get the pawns promoted. I agree I think we could get a draw. Just to throw another line into the equation. What about: 19. Bxe4 Bxe4 20. Qxe4 Qd3 21. Ng3 Nd5 22. Rbe1 Qxe4 23. Nxe4 exf4 24. Bf2 Rad8 25. Rd1 Rd7 26. Rd2 Re8 27. Re1 Rde7 28. Rxd5 Rxe4 29. Rxe4 Rxe4 30. Kg2 Re2 31. Rd8+ Bf8 32. Kf3 Rxb2 33. a4 Last fiddled with by henryzz on 2013-02-10 at 00:32

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