Move 18 - Page 3

henryzz · 2013-02-03, 17:15

[QUOTE=Zeta-Flux;327264]If you mean exf4, don't we simply take their queen with our rook? To make up material they then have to sacrifice their passed pawns.[/QUOTE]

I meant exf3 taking the bishop. I agree exf4 looks possible to deal with.
18. Qc2 dxe4 19. R(bf)d1 exf3 20. Rxd8 R(af)xd8 looks pretty inevitable but he has a protected passed pawn on f3.
We then have to move our knight.

Brian-E · 2013-02-03, 21:34

[QUOTE=henryzz;327333]I meant exf3 taking the bishop. I agree exf4 looks possible to deal with.
18. Qc2 dxe4 19. R(bf)d1 exf3 20. Rxd8 R(af)xd8 looks pretty inevitable but he has a protected passed pawn on f3.
We then have to move our knight.[/QUOTE]
This queen sacrifice by Black does indeed look playable. Well spotted. After 18.Qc2 dxe4 19.Rbd1 exf3 20.Rxd8 Raxd8 21.Nc1 e4 (must be better than 21...exf4 22.Bf2) we will need to bring the knight back into the game and generate play for ourselves with 22.b3 (fortunately we can answer ...b5 with Bxa7 and then a4; in the line where Black has played 20...R[B]f[/B]xd8 leaving a7 defended, we can play 21.Ng3 instead of Nc1 and the knight is still in play), and make sure we contest the d file before Black doubles rooks on it. ...Nf5 can be answered by Kf2, though, after which Black's manoeuvre ...Nf5-h4-g2 doesn't look dangerous, and we seem to have the passed pawns adequately blockaded. So I think we should be okay.

And let's face it, this is all much better than the lines we were discussing before Zeta-Flux' idea of 19.Rb/f-d1, when Black gets the queen to d3, isn't it?

Zeta-Flux · 2013-02-03, 23:35

The trouble with that line is we have traded a pawn, bishop, and rook for a queen, and they now have two passed pawns (defending each other!). If we are looking to win, maybe our queen could pull something off. But we'd have to hope we could stop their pawn storm and pull something off ourselves.

If we are just looking to play for a draw, another option is the old line:

18. Qc2 dxe4
19. Bxe4 Bxe4
20. Qxe4 Qd3
but now play
21. Qxd3 cxd3
22. Ng3 Nd5

They have a passed pawn, but it is much weaker, and will take time to defend.

Zeta-Flux · 2013-02-03, 23:51

Actually, I agree with you Brian. We may have enough play, and be able to blockade the two passed pawns.

Brian-E · 2013-02-04, 09:23

If they play that queen sacrifice it will certainly make an interesting game.

I'm particularly keen to find out what they're going to do. We don't even know if they'll answer 18.Qc2 with 18...dxe4.

So here's a question for Rich, when you get a chance to look at the position. Do you agree with the rest of us that our only reasonable move now is 18.Qc2? If you do, I think we should play it and see what they reply.

richs · 2013-02-04, 14:54

Give me a few hours to wake up and I'll post again. I know it's Monday-morning quarterbacking but we probably should have gone with Qc2 in move 17 rather than Qb3. I don't know how I missed their pawn response to c4.....

richs · 2013-02-04, 19:37

I think that 18. Qc2 is our only move right now. I am still worried about their moving their Queen to d6 which leads to the exchange of our knight and bishop for thir rook:

18. Qc2 Qd6
19. Rbd1 exf4
20. Nxf4 Rxf4
21. Bxf4 Qxf4

Their Queen can then harass our King.

Zeta-Flux · 2013-02-04, 20:31

I agree that Qc2 seems to be our best move. We should probably make it.

In the line richs gave, why not

18. Qc2 Qd6
19. Rbd1 exf4
20. Bd4 Bxd4
21. Rxd4 (or Nxd4)

and we can soon take the f pawn, double our rooks (possibly on the d file, with our queen in the middle), and our weak bishop is gone.

Brian-E · 2013-02-05, 00:41

[QUOTE=richs;327470]Give me a few hours to wake up and I'll post again. I know it's Monday-morning quarterbacking but we probably should have gone with Qc2 in move 17 rather than Qb3. I don't know how I missed their pawn response to c4.....[/QUOTE]
17.Qc2 would have allowed 17...d4. We worked out the 17.Qb3 c4 18.Qc2 sequence back at move 15, reckoning that the black pawn on c4 would be an immovable target. Just for the record.:smile:

[QUOTE=richs;327514]I think that 18. Qc2 is our only move right now. I am still worried about their moving their Queen to d6 which leads to the exchange of our knight and bishop for thir rook:

18. Qc2 Qd6
19. Rbd1 exf4
20. Nxf4 Rxf4
21. Bxf4 Qxf4

Their Queen can then harass our King.[/QUOTE]
Zeta-Flux' suggested line, getting our bishop to d4 and exchanging it, looks good to me. Another possibility is 19.Bg2 giving sufficient defence to f4 and allowing a subsequent ...dxe4 to be answered by Ng3 and Nxe4.

richs · 2013-02-05, 05:47

Nothing negative towards my team-mates intended! Just self-flagellation.... :smile: We still have lots of options.

I think we should proceed with 18. Qc2.

Brian-E · 2013-02-05, 09:07

[QUOTE=Zeta-Flux;327532]I agree that Qc2 seems to be our best move. We should probably make it.[/QUOTE]

[QUOTE=richs;327658]I think we should proceed with 18. Qc2.[/QUOTE]

I agree. If you do too, David, it seems we are ready to play the move.

2013-02-03, 17:15	#23
henryzz Just call me Henry "David" Sep 2007 Liverpool (GMT/BST) 3×23×89 Posts	[QUOTE=Zeta-Flux;327264]If you mean exf4, don't we simply take their queen with our rook? To make up material they then have to sacrifice their passed pawns.[/QUOTE] I meant exf3 taking the bishop. I agree exf4 looks possible to deal with. 18. Qc2 dxe4 19. R(bf)d1 exf3 20. Rxd8 R(af)xd8 looks pretty inevitable but he has a protected passed pawn on f3. We then have to move our knight. Last fiddled with by henryzz on 2013-02-03 at 17:20

2013-02-03, 21:34	#24
Brian-E "Brian" Jul 2007 The Netherlands 2·11·149 Posts	[QUOTE=henryzz;327333]I meant exf3 taking the bishop. I agree exf4 looks possible to deal with. 18. Qc2 dxe4 19. R(bf)d1 exf3 20. Rxd8 R(af)xd8 looks pretty inevitable but he has a protected passed pawn on f3. We then have to move our knight.[/QUOTE] This queen sacrifice by Black does indeed look playable. Well spotted. After 18.Qc2 dxe4 19.Rbd1 exf3 20.Rxd8 Raxd8 21.Nc1 e4 (must be better than 21...exf4 22.Bf2) we will need to bring the knight back into the game and generate play for ourselves with 22.b3 (fortunately we can answer ...b5 with Bxa7 and then a4; in the line where Black has played 20...R[B]f[/B]xd8 leaving a7 defended, we can play 21.Ng3 instead of Nc1 and the knight is still in play), and make sure we contest the d file before Black doubles rooks on it. ...Nf5 can be answered by Kf2, though, after which Black's manoeuvre ...Nf5-h4-g2 doesn't look dangerous, and we seem to have the passed pawns adequately blockaded. So I think we should be okay. And let's face it, this is all much better than the lines we were discussing before Zeta-Flux' idea of 19.Rb/f-d1, when Black gets the queen to d3, isn't it? Last fiddled with by Brian-E on 2013-02-03 at 21:43 Reason: notation errors corrected, and one extra comment added

2013-02-05, 00:41	#31
Brian-E "Brian" Jul 2007 The Netherlands 6316₈ Posts	[QUOTE=richs;327470]Give me a few hours to wake up and I'll post again. I know it's Monday-morning quarterbacking but we probably should have gone with Qc2 in move 17 rather than Qb3. I don't know how I missed their pawn response to c4.....[/QUOTE] 17.Qc2 would have allowed 17...d4. We worked out the 17.Qb3 c4 18.Qc2 sequence back at move 15, reckoning that the black pawn on c4 would be an immovable target. Just for the record.:smile: [QUOTE=richs;327514]I think that 18. Qc2 is our only move right now. I am still worried about their moving their Queen to d6 which leads to the exchange of our knight and bishop for thir rook: 18. Qc2 Qd6 19. Rbd1 exf4 20. Nxf4 Rxf4 21. Bxf4 Qxf4 Their Queen can then harass our King.[/QUOTE] Zeta-Flux' suggested line, getting our bishop to d4 and exchanging it, looks good to me. Another possibility is 19.Bg2 giving sufficient defence to f4 and allowing a subsequent ...dxe4 to be answered by Ng3 and Nxe4. Last fiddled with by Brian-E on 2013-02-05 at 00:41

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2013-02-03, 23:35	#25
Zeta-Flux May 2003 7×13×17 Posts	The trouble with that line is we have traded a pawn, bishop, and rook for a queen, and they now have two passed pawns (defending each other!). If we are looking to win, maybe our queen could pull something off. But we'd have to hope we could stop their pawn storm and pull something off ourselves. If we are just looking to play for a draw, another option is the old line: 18. Qc2 dxe4 19. Bxe4 Bxe4 20. Qxe4 Qd3 but now play 21. Qxd3 cxd3 22. Ng3 Nd5 They have a passed pawn, but it is much weaker, and will take time to defend.

2013-02-03, 23:51	#26
Zeta-Flux May 2003 7·13·17 Posts	Actually, I agree with you Brian. We may have enough play, and be able to blockade the two passed pawns.

2013-02-04, 09:23	#27
Brian-E "Brian" Jul 2007 The Netherlands 2·11·149 Posts	If they play that queen sacrifice it will certainly make an interesting game. I'm particularly keen to find out what they're going to do. We don't even know if they'll answer 18.Qc2 with 18...dxe4. So here's a question for Rich, when you get a chance to look at the position. Do you agree with the rest of us that our only reasonable move now is 18.Qc2? If you do, I think we should play it and see what they reply.

2013-02-04, 14:54	#28
richs "Rich" Aug 2002 Benicia, California 2·859 Posts	Give me a few hours to wake up and I'll post again. I know it's Monday-morning quarterbacking but we probably should have gone with Qc2 in move 17 rather than Qb3. I don't know how I missed their pawn response to c4.....

2013-02-04, 19:37	#29
richs "Rich" Aug 2002 Benicia, California 2·859 Posts	I think that 18. Qc2 is our only move right now. I am still worried about their moving their Queen to d6 which leads to the exchange of our knight and bishop for thir rook: 18. Qc2 Qd6 19. Rbd1 exf4 20. Nxf4 Rxf4 21. Bxf4 Qxf4 Their Queen can then harass our King.

2013-02-04, 20:31	#30
Zeta-Flux May 2003 60B₁₆ Posts	I agree that Qc2 seems to be our best move. We should probably make it. In the line richs gave, why not 18. Qc2 Qd6 19. Rbd1 exf4 20. Bd4 Bxd4 21. Rxd4 (or Nxd4) and we can soon take the f pawn, double our rooks (possibly on the d file, with our queen in the middle), and our weak bishop is gone.

2013-02-05, 05:47	#32
richs "Rich" Aug 2002 Benicia, California 2·859 Posts	Nothing negative towards my team-mates intended! Just self-flagellation.... :smile: We still have lots of options. I think we should proceed with 18. Qc2.

2013-02-05, 09:07	#33
Brian-E "Brian" Jul 2007 The Netherlands 6316₈ Posts	[QUOTE=Zeta-Flux;327532]I agree that Qc2 seems to be our best move. We should probably make it.[/QUOTE] [QUOTE=richs;327658]I think we should proceed with 18. Qc2.[/QUOTE] I agree. If you do too, David, it seems we are ready to play the move.