Move 17 - Page 2

Brian-E · 2013-01-28, 19:57

[QUOTE=Zeta-Flux;326374]I must have missed those reasons.[/QUOTE]
I was referring to post #4.

[QUOTE]If we play exd5 immediately, and they don't take back with the Bishop, we have superior play. If they do take back with the bishop, we can (if we want) convert back to that same line by trading bishops, and then playing Qb3, can we not?[/QUOTE]
Yes, but if we play 17.Qb3 we gain a tempo on this because Black is forced to break the pin (probably with 17...Kh8) in order to renew the threat of ...d4.

henryzz · 2013-01-28, 21:13

I am pretty happy with Qb3. I am not sure of the line:
17.Qb3 c4 18.Qc2 dxe4 19.Bxe4 Bxe4 20.Qxe4 Qd3 21.Ng3
Does anyone have any improvements on this?

Zeta-Flux · 2013-01-28, 23:13

I'm also happy with Qb3. Let's just recap what we think the best lines are.

Starting w/ Qb3:
17. Qb3 Kh8
18. exd5 Bxd5
19. Bxd5 Qxd5
and we have multiple threats like c4, Rd2, etc...

an alternate line here is
17. Qb3 c4
18. Qc2 dxe4
19. Bxe4 Bxe4
20. Qxe4 Qd3
21. Ng3
and we have lots of play. (I did not see any improvement on this line henry.)

Starting w/ exd5:
17. exd5 Bxd5
18. Bxd5 Qxd5
19. Qxd5 Nxd5
and they can simply advance their e pawn and they now have a passed pawn, which will continue its march

So the best move seems to be Qb3.

Brian-E · 2013-01-29, 13:38

The line which David gives looks fine to me and I can't improve on it either. I also agree with the summary lines which Zeta-Flux lists.

So I, too, am in favour of 17.Qb3.

And now, Grandfather-to-be, what do you think? :smile: It was your suggested line, Rich, which persuaded the rest of us to discard the inferior 15.Bg2 which we had virtually agreed on, and play the much better 15.c3, so your input is extremely valuable. Can you spot anything the rest of us have missed this time?

richs · 2013-01-29, 22:51

Lol, just don't call me Gramps!

I spent an hour looking at our current position and I agree with 17. Qb3. It's better than 17. Qc2 that I looked at back in Move 15.

I think their alternate response may be 17. ... Qd6 which leads to:

18. fxe5 Qxe5
19. Bg2 Rac8
20. Bf4

and we have them on the run.

henryzz · 2013-01-30, 00:32

[QUOTE=richs;326552]Lol, just don't call me Gramps!

I spent an hour looking at our current position and I agree with 17. Qb3. It's better than 17. Qc2 that I looked at back in Move 15.

I think their alternate response may be 17. ... Qd6 which leads to:

18. fxe5 Qxe5
19. Bg2 Rac8
20. Bf4

and we have them on the run.[/QUOTE]

If I were them I would do Bxe5 instead of Qxe5.

Brian-E · 2013-01-30, 09:16

[QUOTE=henryzz;326571]If I were them I would do Bxe5 instead of Qxe5.[/QUOTE]
Yes, capturing on e5 with the bishop looks much better than with the queen. And we may have to watch out for lines like the following:
17.Qb3 Qd6 18.fxe5 Bxe5 19.Rf2 Rxf3! 20.Rxf3 Bxh2+ 21.Kf2 (or 21.Kf1. 21.Kh1 looks doubtful though because of the b7 bishop on the long diagonal) c4 22.Qc2 dxe4 23.Rh3 (not 23.Rf6 Qc7/b8 with ...Be5 to follow) Nf5 with a dangerous looking attack and with two pawns for the exchange.

But we don't have to play 18.fxe5. Either 18.exd5, or first 18.Rbd1 with exd5 to follow, look fine to me. The black queen on d6 seems unfortunately placed. If they're going to move it in reply to 17.Qb3, I expect them to take it off the d file. 17.Qb3 Qc7 looks more natural, but again either 18.exd5 or 18.Rbd1 look okay.

Brian-E · 2013-01-31, 13:33

Is it time to play 17.Qb3 since everyone seems to agree on that move?

richs · 2013-01-31, 15:12

I'm good to go with 17. Qb3

Zeta-Flux · 2013-01-31, 15:12

Ditto

henryzz · 2013-01-31, 21:38

Same here. I will post once the annoying 120 second rule is up.
edit: Looks like I forgot. Batalov saw this post though.

2013-01-31, 21:38	#22
henryzz Just call me Henry "David" Sep 2007 Liverpool (GMT/BST) 13775₈ Posts	Same here. I will post once the annoying 120 second rule is up. edit: Looks like I forgot. Batalov saw this post though. Last fiddled with by henryzz on 2013-01-31 at 22:01

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2013-01-28, 19:57	#12
Brian-E "Brian" Jul 2007 The Netherlands 2×11×149 Posts	[QUOTE=Zeta-Flux;326374]I must have missed those reasons.[/QUOTE] I was referring to post #4. [QUOTE]If we play exd5 immediately, and they don't take back with the Bishop, we have superior play. If they do take back with the bishop, we can (if we want) convert back to that same line by trading bishops, and then playing Qb3, can we not?[/QUOTE] Yes, but if we play 17.Qb3 we gain a tempo on this because Black is forced to break the pin (probably with 17...Kh8) in order to renew the threat of ...d4.

2013-01-28, 21:13	#13
henryzz Just call me Henry "David" Sep 2007 Liverpool (GMT/BST) 3×23×89 Posts	I am pretty happy with Qb3. I am not sure of the line: 17.Qb3 c4 18.Qc2 dxe4 19.Bxe4 Bxe4 20.Qxe4 Qd3 21.Ng3 Does anyone have any improvements on this?

2013-01-28, 23:13	#14
Zeta-Flux May 2003 11000001011₂ Posts	I'm also happy with Qb3. Let's just recap what we think the best lines are. Starting w/ Qb3: 17. Qb3 Kh8 18. exd5 Bxd5 19. Bxd5 Qxd5 and we have multiple threats like c4, Rd2, etc... an alternate line here is 17. Qb3 c4 18. Qc2 dxe4 19. Bxe4 Bxe4 20. Qxe4 Qd3 21. Ng3 and we have lots of play. (I did not see any improvement on this line henry.) Starting w/ exd5: 17. exd5 Bxd5 18. Bxd5 Qxd5 19. Qxd5 Nxd5 and they can simply advance their e pawn and they now have a passed pawn, which will continue its march So the best move seems to be Qb3.

2013-01-29, 13:38	#15
Brian-E "Brian" Jul 2007 The Netherlands 6316₈ Posts	The line which David gives looks fine to me and I can't improve on it either. I also agree with the summary lines which Zeta-Flux lists. So I, too, am in favour of 17.Qb3. And now, Grandfather-to-be, what do you think? :smile: It was your suggested line, Rich, which persuaded the rest of us to discard the inferior 15.Bg2 which we had virtually agreed on, and play the much better 15.c3, so your input is extremely valuable. Can you spot anything the rest of us have missed this time?

2013-01-29, 22:51	#16
richs "Rich" Aug 2002 Benicia, California 2×859 Posts	Lol, just don't call me Gramps! I spent an hour looking at our current position and I agree with 17. Qb3. It's better than 17. Qc2 that I looked at back in Move 15. I think their alternate response may be 17. ... Qd6 which leads to: 18. fxe5 Qxe5 19. Bg2 Rac8 20. Bf4 and we have them on the run.

2013-01-30, 00:32	#17
henryzz Just call me Henry "David" Sep 2007 Liverpool (GMT/BST) 3·23·89 Posts	[QUOTE=richs;326552]Lol, just don't call me Gramps! I spent an hour looking at our current position and I agree with 17. Qb3. It's better than 17. Qc2 that I looked at back in Move 15. I think their alternate response may be 17. ... Qd6 which leads to: 18. fxe5 Qxe5 19. Bg2 Rac8 20. Bf4 and we have them on the run.[/QUOTE] If I were them I would do Bxe5 instead of Qxe5.

2013-01-30, 09:16	#18
Brian-E "Brian" Jul 2007 The Netherlands 2×11×149 Posts	[QUOTE=henryzz;326571]If I were them I would do Bxe5 instead of Qxe5.[/QUOTE] Yes, capturing on e5 with the bishop looks much better than with the queen. And we may have to watch out for lines like the following: 17.Qb3 Qd6 18.fxe5 Bxe5 19.Rf2 Rxf3! 20.Rxf3 Bxh2+ 21.Kf2 (or 21.Kf1. 21.Kh1 looks doubtful though because of the b7 bishop on the long diagonal) c4 22.Qc2 dxe4 23.Rh3 (not 23.Rf6 Qc7/b8 with ...Be5 to follow) Nf5 with a dangerous looking attack and with two pawns for the exchange. But we don't have to play 18.fxe5. Either 18.exd5, or first 18.Rbd1 with exd5 to follow, look fine to me. The black queen on d6 seems unfortunately placed. If they're going to move it in reply to 17.Qb3, I expect them to take it off the d file. 17.Qb3 Qc7 looks more natural, but again either 18.exd5 or 18.Rbd1 look okay.

2013-01-31, 13:33	#19
Brian-E "Brian" Jul 2007 The Netherlands 2·11·149 Posts	Is it time to play 17.Qb3 since everyone seems to agree on that move?

2013-01-31, 15:12	#20
richs "Rich" Aug 2002 Benicia, California 2·859 Posts	I'm good to go with 17. Qb3

2013-01-31, 15:12	#21
Zeta-Flux May 2003 7·13·17 Posts	Ditto