Move 17

Brian-E · 2013-01-26, 18:02

Since they've played 16...d5, here are some relevant postings from our previous thread:
[QUOTE=Zeta-Flux;325843]So what are our options under d5?[/QUOTE]

[QUOTE=henryzz;325849]d5 leaves our pawn on e4 a bit exposed. We can't take back with our bishop after dxe4. We must either take his pawn with ours(exd5), defend our pawn(Qd3, Qc2, Qa4) or stop him taking our pawn(Qb3).[LIST][*]exd5
Allows black to do Bxd5 or worse Nxd5. After Nxd5 black has a central knight that looks very powerful. We are forced to either move our dark bishop(can't see a good spot) or exchange our light bishop. If we echange our light bishop we would struggle to get his white bishop.[*]Qd3
Black can do c4 forcing our queen to move again. I can't see any advantage in letting him move c4 for free.[*]Qc2
Looks intriguing. Black can do d4 which at first glace looks horrible but we can reply Rbd1 pinning his pawn to his queen.[*]Qa4
Black can counter Bc6 forcing the queen to move.[*]Qb3
Pins the pawn on d5, however like Qd3 black can respond c4 forcing the queen to move again.[/LIST]
A later thought I had on Qb3 or Qd3 is that after ... d5 17. Q(bd)3 c4 18. Qc2 we are in a better position against d4 as the c pawn is no longer defending d4. The c4 pawn is also not very strong itself.

The options seem to be Qc2 or Q(bd)3. I think d5 still looks to be black's better move. exf4 seems to relax black's pressure on white rather than add more like d5.[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE][QUOTE=henryzz;325849]A later thought I had on Qb3 or Qd3 is that after ... d5 17. Q(bd)3 c4 18. Qc2 we are in a better position against d4 as the c pawn is no longer defending d4. The c4 pawn is also not very strong itself.[/QUOTE]

[QUOTE=Brian-E;325984]This (with 17.Qb3) is the line I suggested on our previous move (but I don't expect Black to play 17...c4 in that position: as you say, the pawn on c4 is not impressive, it will be immobilised there and subject to attack).[/QUOTE][/QUOTE]Currently I'm in favour of 17.Qb3 as this is what I worked out when we were discussing move 15. But David's other suggestions, and possibly other moves too, certainly merit closer scrutiny and I for one am going to look at them now.

henryzz · 2013-01-26, 21:11

My current opinion is Qb3. It greatly encourages them to force us back. This means they can't do d4.
Qd3 lets them choose c4 or d4.
Qc2 looks passive to me.

I have taken another look at exd5. After Nxd5 we can do Qb3 which pins his knight. This leaves Bxd5 as the other option for black then. I think that line might lead to a few exchanges. I am not sure how helpful that would be.

In case you have notice I don't like them doing d4 and have put effort into avoiding it. If anyone can see a use for it please say.

Zeta-Flux · 2013-01-27, 05:34

What about:

17. exd5 Nxd5
18. Qb3 (threatening to pin the knight with one of our rooks)

(if they instead play 17. ... Bxd5, 18. Bxd5 Nxd5 and we are essentially back at the good position. On this line if they play 18. ... Qxd5, we may have to trade queens...)

Brian-E · 2013-01-27, 17:25

[QUOTE=Zeta-Flux;326086]What about:

17. exd5 Nxd5
18. Qb3 (threatening to pin the knight with one of our rooks)

(if they instead play 17. ... Bxd5, 18. Bxd5 Nxd5 and we are essentially back at the good position. On this line if they play 18. ... Qxd5, we may have to trade queens...)[/QUOTE]
The lines you give where we end up pinning their knight do indeed look good for us, but I think your suggested line 17.exd5 Bxd5 18.Bxd5+ Qxd5 is their best play. If we do indeed have to trade queens (and I'm not at all sure that 19.Qa4 Rfd8 20.Rbd1 Qe6, with the threat to win a piece with exf4 plus prospects of ...Nf5, is any better for us than trading queens), then only Black seems to have (slight) winning prospects after 19.Qxd5 Nxd5 20.Bd2 or 20.Bc1 when our minor pieces hamper our development of the rooks to the centre files. In addition the endgame has the bad static feature for us that our pawn on g5 is fixed on the same coloured square as the bishops.

Therefore I still currently prefer 17.Qb3.

Zeta-Flux · 2013-01-27, 19:02

[QUOTE]I think your suggested line 17.exd5 Bxd5 18.Bxd5+ Qxd5 is their best play.[/QUOTE]I would agree. I'm not sure they will see it that way, but I agree.

I'll have to give this line a better look. Notice that 18. Bxd5 is not something we are forced to do. We can instead use that time develop.

The problem I have with the immediate Qb3 is that it seems to allow the loss of a pawn. What is the line you prefer which prevents the loss of the pawn? Let's say 17. Qb3 c4 18. Qc2 d4 19. ?

Brian-E · 2013-01-27, 19:20

[QUOTE=Zeta-Flux;326175]I'll have to give this line a better look. Notice that 18. Bxd5 is not something we are forced to do. We can instead use that time develop.[/QUOTE]
True, but Black seems to me to be "in control" here.

[QUOTE]The problem I have with the immediate Qb3 is that it seems to allow the loss of a pawn. What is the line you prefer which prevents the loss of the pawn? Let's say 17. Qb3 c4 18. Qc2 d4 19. ?[/QUOTE]I'm probably being an idiot, but could you show how 17.Qb3 loses a pawn? In the line you mention we seem to [I]win[/I] a pawn (at least): 19.cxd4 with the threat of 20.Qxc4+. What have I missed?:unsure:

richs · 2013-01-28, 05:32

Sorry I haven't contributed more on this move yet, but I just found out this weekend that I am going to be a grandfather! I'll work on the move tomorrow...

Brian-E · 2013-01-28, 10:36

[QUOTE=richs;326284]Sorry I haven't contributed more on this move yet, but I just found out this weekend that I am going to be a grandfather! I'll work on the move tomorrow...[/QUOTE]
Congratulations! I'm not even a father let alone a grandfather (though I'm older than many grandparents!), but I can still appreciate that this must be enormously exciting news.

Zeta-Flux · 2013-01-28, 16:49

I agree with your analysis. What about the line

17. Qb3 Kh8

(My current preferred line, if we do play exd5, is the following:
17. exd5 Bxd5
18. Bxd5 Qxd5
19. Qc2)

Brian-E · 2013-01-28, 18:08

[QUOTE=Zeta-Flux;326353]I agree with your analysis. What about the line

17. Qb3 Kh8

(My current preferred line, if we do play exd5, is the following:
17. exd5 Bxd5
18. Bxd5 Qxd5
19. Qc2)[/QUOTE]
Yes, I think we have to play 18.exd5 once Black has got out of the pin, because I agree with David who warns of the dangers of allowing ...d4. With our queen on b3 we are in a better position, I believe, than if we play 17.exd5 immediately, for reasons already discussed.

In our discussion of move 15 I posted this line:
[QUOTE=Brian-E;325131]One important point of the move 15.c3 is that we will be able to answer ...d5 with Qb3. For example 15.c3 fxe4 16.dxe4 d5 17.Qb3 Kh8 18.exd5 Nxd5 19.Rbd1.[/QUOTE]
but I think your line of 18...[B]B[/B]xd5 19.Bxd5 Qxd5 is better play for Black than what I suggested then. If 20.Qc2 they can probably help themselves to the a pawn and get away with it, though, with 20...Qxa2 unless I am missing something. So I think we choose carefully between 20.fxe5, 20.Rbd1, or perhaps 20.c4 when the time comes. I don't think we especially need to fear the doubling of our b pawn if we allow ...Qxb3: those pawns ought not to be especially weak, and our half open a file might be useful in the ending.

EDIT: When I wrote the above I thought you had the move numbers wrong and meant to suggest the line 17.Qb3 Kh8 18.exd5 Bxd5 19.Bxd5 Qxd5 20.Qc2, but I've just realised that you were probably talking about the situation where we don't play 17.Qb3. Sorry, I should have trusted your move numbers. In the line 17.exd5 Bxd5 18.Bxd5 Qxd5 19.Qc2 as you give it, I think Black can also take the a pawn without significant retribution, 19...Qxa2. I appreciate that decentralising the queen to take a stray rook's pawn is dodgy strategy in general terms, but I'd like to see clear compensation for any pawn we sacrifice and I don't see it here.

Zeta-Flux · 2013-01-28, 19:52

[QUOTE=Brian-E;326365]Yes, I think we have to play 18.exd5 once Black has got out of the pin, because I agree with David who warns of the dangers of allowing ...d4. With our queen on b3 we are in a better position, I believe, than if we play 17.exd5 immediately, for reasons already discussed.[/quote]I must have missed those reasons.

If we play exd5 immediately, and they don't take back with the Bishop, we have superior play. If they do take back with the bishop, we can (if we want) convert back to that same line by trading bishops, and then playing Qb3, can we not?

I'll look at the rest after I get some time this afternoon.

2013-01-26, 18:02	#1
Brian-E "Brian" Jul 2007 The Netherlands CCE₁₆ Posts	Move 17 Since they've played 16...d5, here are some relevant postings from our previous thread: [QUOTE=Zeta-Flux;325843]So what are our options under d5?[/QUOTE] [QUOTE=henryzz;325849]d5 leaves our pawn on e4 a bit exposed. We can't take back with our bishop after dxe4. We must either take his pawn with ours(exd5), defend our pawn(Qd3, Qc2, Qa4) or stop him taking our pawn(Qb3).[LIST][]exd5 Allows black to do Bxd5 or worse Nxd5. After Nxd5 black has a central knight that looks very powerful. We are forced to either move our dark bishop(can't see a good spot) or exchange our light bishop. If we echange our light bishop we would struggle to get his white bishop.[]Qd3 Black can do c4 forcing our queen to move again. I can't see any advantage in letting him move c4 for free.[]Qc2 Looks intriguing. Black can do d4 which at first glace looks horrible but we can reply Rbd1 pinning his pawn to his queen.[]Qa4 Black can counter Bc6 forcing the queen to move.[]Qb3 Pins the pawn on d5, however like Qd3 black can respond c4 forcing the queen to move again.[/LIST] A later thought I had on Qb3 or Qd3 is that after ... d5 17. Q(bd)3 c4 18. Qc2 we are in a better position against d4 as the c pawn is no longer defending d4. The c4 pawn is also not very strong itself. The options seem to be Qc2 or Q(bd)3. I think d5 still looks to be black's better move. exf4 seems to relax black's pressure on white rather than add more like d5.[/QUOTE] [QUOTE][QUOTE=henryzz;325849]A later thought I had on Qb3 or Qd3 is that after ... d5 17. Q(bd)3 c4 18. Qc2 we are in a better position against d4 as the c pawn is no longer defending d4. The c4 pawn is also not very strong itself.[/QUOTE] [QUOTE=Brian-E;325984]This (with 17.Qb3) is the line I suggested on our previous move (but I don't expect Black to play 17...c4 in that position: as you say, the pawn on c4 is not impressive, it will be immobilised there and subject to attack).[/QUOTE][/QUOTE]Currently I'm in favour of 17.Qb3 as this is what I worked out when we were discussing move 15. But David's other suggestions, and possibly other moves too, certainly merit closer scrutiny and I for one am going to look at them now. Last fiddled with by Brian-E on 2013-01-26 at 18:16 Reason: sorted out the right quotations*

2013-01-27, 05:34	#3
Zeta-Flux May 2003 7·13·17 Posts	What about: 17. exd5 Nxd5 18. Qb3 (threatening to pin the knight with one of our rooks) (if they instead play 17. ... Bxd5, 18. Bxd5 Nxd5 and we are essentially back at the good position. On this line if they play 18. ... Qxd5, we may have to trade queens...) Last fiddled with by Zeta-Flux on 2013-01-27 at 05:36

2013-01-28, 16:49	#9
Zeta-Flux May 2003 60B₁₆ Posts	I agree with your analysis. What about the line 17. Qb3 Kh8 (My current preferred line, if we do play exd5, is the following: 17. exd5 Bxd5 18. Bxd5 Qxd5 19. Qc2) Last fiddled with by Zeta-Flux on 2013-01-28 at 16:50

2013-01-28, 18:08	#10
Brian-E "Brian" Jul 2007 The Netherlands 2·11·149 Posts	[QUOTE=Zeta-Flux;326353]I agree with your analysis. What about the line 17. Qb3 Kh8 (My current preferred line, if we do play exd5, is the following: 17. exd5 Bxd5 18. Bxd5 Qxd5 19. Qc2)[/QUOTE] Yes, I think we have to play 18.exd5 once Black has got out of the pin, because I agree with David who warns of the dangers of allowing ...d4. With our queen on b3 we are in a better position, I believe, than if we play 17.exd5 immediately, for reasons already discussed. In our discussion of move 15 I posted this line: [QUOTE=Brian-E;325131]One important point of the move 15.c3 is that we will be able to answer ...d5 with Qb3. For example 15.c3 fxe4 16.dxe4 d5 17.Qb3 Kh8 18.exd5 Nxd5 19.Rbd1.[/QUOTE] but I think your line of 18...[B]B[/B]xd5 19.Bxd5 Qxd5 is better play for Black than what I suggested then. If 20.Qc2 they can probably help themselves to the a pawn and get away with it, though, with 20...Qxa2 unless I am missing something. So I think we choose carefully between 20.fxe5, 20.Rbd1, or perhaps 20.c4 when the time comes. I don't think we especially need to fear the doubling of our b pawn if we allow ...Qxb3: those pawns ought not to be especially weak, and our half open a file might be useful in the ending. EDIT: When I wrote the above I thought you had the move numbers wrong and meant to suggest the line 17.Qb3 Kh8 18.exd5 Bxd5 19.Bxd5 Qxd5 20.Qc2, but I've just realised that you were probably talking about the situation where we don't play 17.Qb3. Sorry, I should have trusted your move numbers. In the line 17.exd5 Bxd5 18.Bxd5 Qxd5 19.Qc2 as you give it, I think Black can also take the a pawn without significant retribution, 19...Qxa2. I appreciate that decentralising the queen to take a stray rook's pawn is dodgy strategy in general terms, but I'd like to see clear compensation for any pawn we sacrifice and I don't see it here. Last fiddled with by Brian-E on 2013-01-28 at 18:17 Reason: re-interpreted your post as I explain

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2013-01-26, 21:11	#2
henryzz Just call me Henry "David" Sep 2007 Liverpool (GMT/BST) 3·23·89 Posts	My current opinion is Qb3. It greatly encourages them to force us back. This means they can't do d4. Qd3 lets them choose c4 or d4. Qc2 looks passive to me. I have taken another look at exd5. After Nxd5 we can do Qb3 which pins his knight. This leaves Bxd5 as the other option for black then. I think that line might lead to a few exchanges. I am not sure how helpful that would be. In case you have notice I don't like them doing d4 and have put effort into avoiding it. If anyone can see a use for it please say.

2013-01-27, 17:25	#4
Brian-E "Brian" Jul 2007 The Netherlands 2·11·149 Posts	[QUOTE=Zeta-Flux;326086]What about: 17. exd5 Nxd5 18. Qb3 (threatening to pin the knight with one of our rooks) (if they instead play 17. ... Bxd5, 18. Bxd5 Nxd5 and we are essentially back at the good position. On this line if they play 18. ... Qxd5, we may have to trade queens...)[/QUOTE] The lines you give where we end up pinning their knight do indeed look good for us, but I think your suggested line 17.exd5 Bxd5 18.Bxd5+ Qxd5 is their best play. If we do indeed have to trade queens (and I'm not at all sure that 19.Qa4 Rfd8 20.Rbd1 Qe6, with the threat to win a piece with exf4 plus prospects of ...Nf5, is any better for us than trading queens), then only Black seems to have (slight) winning prospects after 19.Qxd5 Nxd5 20.Bd2 or 20.Bc1 when our minor pieces hamper our development of the rooks to the centre files. In addition the endgame has the bad static feature for us that our pawn on g5 is fixed on the same coloured square as the bishops. Therefore I still currently prefer 17.Qb3.

2013-01-27, 19:02	#5
Zeta-Flux May 2003 7×13×17 Posts	[QUOTE]I think your suggested line 17.exd5 Bxd5 18.Bxd5+ Qxd5 is their best play.[/QUOTE]I would agree. I'm not sure they will see it that way, but I agree. I'll have to give this line a better look. Notice that 18. Bxd5 is not something we are forced to do. We can instead use that time develop. The problem I have with the immediate Qb3 is that it seems to allow the loss of a pawn. What is the line you prefer which prevents the loss of the pawn? Let's say 17. Qb3 c4 18. Qc2 d4 19. ?

2013-01-27, 19:20	#6
Brian-E "Brian" Jul 2007 The Netherlands 2·11·149 Posts	[QUOTE=Zeta-Flux;326175]I'll have to give this line a better look. Notice that 18. Bxd5 is not something we are forced to do. We can instead use that time develop.[/QUOTE] True, but Black seems to me to be "in control" here. [QUOTE]The problem I have with the immediate Qb3 is that it seems to allow the loss of a pawn. What is the line you prefer which prevents the loss of the pawn? Let's say 17. Qb3 c4 18. Qc2 d4 19. ?[/QUOTE]I'm probably being an idiot, but could you show how 17.Qb3 loses a pawn? In the line you mention we seem to [I]win[/I] a pawn (at least): 19.cxd4 with the threat of 20.Qxc4+. What have I missed?:unsure:

2013-01-28, 05:32	#7
richs "Rich" Aug 2002 Benicia, California 2·859 Posts	Sorry I haven't contributed more on this move yet, but I just found out this weekend that I am going to be a grandfather! I'll work on the move tomorrow...

2013-01-28, 10:36	#8
Brian-E "Brian" Jul 2007 The Netherlands 2·11·149 Posts	[QUOTE=richs;326284]Sorry I haven't contributed more on this move yet, but I just found out this weekend that I am going to be a grandfather! I'll work on the move tomorrow...[/QUOTE] Congratulations! I'm not even a father let alone a grandfather (though I'm older than many grandparents!), but I can still appreciate that this must be enormously exciting news.

2013-01-28, 19:52	#11
Zeta-Flux May 2003 7·13·17 Posts	[QUOTE=Brian-E;326365]Yes, I think we have to play 18.exd5 once Black has got out of the pin, because I agree with David who warns of the dangers of allowing ...d4. With our queen on b3 we are in a better position, I believe, than if we play 17.exd5 immediately, for reasons already discussed.[/quote]I must have missed those reasons. If we play exd5 immediately, and they don't take back with the Bishop, we have superior play. If they do take back with the bishop, we can (if we want) convert back to that same line by trading bishops, and then playing Qb3, can we not? I'll look at the rest after I get some time this afternoon.