Move 16

Batalov · 2013-01-25, 09:06

[STRIKE]Should I simply post the forced 16. dxe4
There's no alternative, really
[/STRIKE]
Please disregard, -- I got carried away.

Brian-E · 2013-01-25, 09:50

[QUOTE=Batalov;325773]Should I simply post the forced 16. dxe4
There's no alternative, really[/QUOTE]
You are likely to be correct, but my personal view is that it would be most fitting to give the team members a short time to agree with that. (David, as team captain, may of course over-rule me.:smile:)

A couple of simple alternative lines which look bad to me, but I could be wrong: 16.Bxe4 d5 (alternatively Black might prefer 16...Nf5 first) 17.Qb3 Kh8 18.Bg2 Nf5 and Black seems to have all the fun to me. Or 16.Bg2 exd3 17.Bxb7 dxe2 18.Qxe2 (18.Bd5+? Kh8! 19.Qxe2 Nxd5 wins our bishop) Rb8 and Black's a pawn up, has the central control, and our bishop pair looks to be inadequate compensation.

So at the moment I agree with Sergey that 16.dxe4 is the only reasonable move. It's the move we were anticipating playing as the response to ...fxe4.

henryzz · 2013-01-25, 13:02

I agree with Brian. I think it best if at least 2 preferably 3 people look at it before hand. Mistakes are only too easy to make.
I also think it useful to re-explain why it is the better move like Brian just did.

I also agree with the move dxe4.

This might be a good time to go over our next move deeper.

richs · 2013-01-25, 15:07

We like to chat anyway.....

Zeta-Flux · 2013-01-25, 21:28

I think that 16. dxe4 is indeed the best move. At that point, black's options seem to be either d5 or exf4.

I've played 3 games with the exf4, and won only 1. But the last time it was because I played a better line than the other two times.

I think we have to play dxe4. We can continue discussing options in the meantime, but let's announce our move now.

Cheers,
Zeta-Flux

henryzz · 2013-01-25, 21:44

[QUOTE=Zeta-Flux;325833]I think that 16. dxe4 is indeed the best move. At that point, black's options seem to be either d5 or exf4.

I've played 3 games with the exf4, and won only 1. But the last time it was because I played a better line than the other two times.

I think we have to play dxe4. We can continue discussing options in the meantime, but let's announce our move now.

Cheers,
Zeta-Flux[/QUOTE]

I will post. Everyone has at least seen this.

henryzz · 2013-01-25, 22:53

[QUOTE=Zeta-Flux;325833]I think that 16. dxe4 is indeed the best move. At that point, black's options seem to be either d5 or exf4.

I've played 3 games with the exf4, and won only 1. But the last time it was because I played a better line than the other two times.

I think we have to play dxe4. We can continue discussing options in the meantime, but let's announce our move now.

Cheers,
Zeta-Flux[/QUOTE]

I can't see the point in them doing exf4 for their next move.
If we reply Bxf4, our dark bishop has freedom to attack their pawn on d6 along with our queen. I would call this an improvement in position for us. They can course do Be5 an exchange bishops. This looks an even position for me.
If we reply Nxf4, we are threatening Ne6 forking their queen, rook and bishop. Black can escape without loss or piece but loses position.

Did playing this line make it look better Zeta? Did I miss something obvious?

The other main option is d5. I think this much more likely.

Apologies if I made mistakes typing, the backspace on my keyboard is going. The spell check caught most of them.

Zeta-Flux · 2013-01-25, 22:59

[QUOTE=henryzz;325840]
If we reply Nxf4, we are threatening Ne6 forking their queen, rook and bishop. Black can escape without loss or piece but loses position.

Did playing this line make it look better Zeta? Did I miss something obvious?

The other main option is d5. I think this much more likely.

Apologies if I made mistakes typing, the backspace on my keyboard is going. The spell check caught most of them.[/QUOTE]I played the Nxf4 line all 3 times. Black responded with Qd7. The best response to that which I came up with was c4. (These were quick games though, so shouldn't be relied on too much.)

Zeta-Flux · 2013-01-25, 23:02

So what are our options under d5?

henryzz · 2013-01-25, 23:31

[QUOTE=Zeta-Flux;325841]I played the Nxf4 line all 3 times. Black responded with Qd7. The best response to that which I came up with was c4. (These were quick games though, so shouldn't be relied on too much.)[/QUOTE]

... exf4 17. Nxf4 Qd7 18. c4 is still a good position for us IMO. We have stopped him doing d5(all his pieces focus on that square) and have opened the way to Nd5 ourselves.

d5 is the one to think about.

henryzz · 2013-01-26, 00:03

d5 leaves our pawn on e4 a bit exposed. We can't take back with our bishop after dxe4. We must either take his pawn with ours(exd5), defend our pawn(Qd3, Qc2, Qa4) or stop him taking our pawn(Qb3).[LIST][*]exd5
Allows black to do Bxd5 or worse Nxd5. After Nxd5 black has a central knight that looks very powerful. We are forced to either move our dark bishop(can't see a good spot) or exchange our light bishop. If we echange our light bishop we would struggle to get his white bishop.[*]Qd3
Black can do c4 forcing our queen to move again. I can't see any advantage in letting him move c4 for free.[*]Qc2
Looks intriguing. Black can do d4 which at first glace looks horrible but we can reply Rbd1 pinning his pawn to his queen.[*]Qa4
Black can counter Bc6 forcing the queen to move.[*]Qb3
Pins the pawn on d5, however like Qd3 black can respond c4 forcing the queen to move again.[/LIST]
A later thought I had on Qb3 or Qd3 is that after ... d5 17. Q(bd)3 c4 18. Qc2 we are in a better position against d4 as the c pawn is no longer defending d4. The c4 pawn is also not very strong itself.

The options seem to be Qc2 or Q(bd)3. I think d5 still looks to be black's better move. exf4 seems to relax black's pressure on white rather than add more like d5.

2013-01-25, 09:06	#1
Batalov "Serge" Mar 2008 San Diego, Calif. 3²×7×163 Posts	Move 16 [STRIKE]Should I simply post the forced 16. dxe4 There's no alternative, really [/STRIKE] Please disregard, -- I got carried away. Last fiddled with by Batalov on 2013-01-25 at 10:21

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2013-01-25, 09:50	#2
Brian-E "Brian" Jul 2007 The Netherlands 110011001110₂ Posts	[QUOTE=Batalov;325773]Should I simply post the forced 16. dxe4 There's no alternative, really[/QUOTE] You are likely to be correct, but my personal view is that it would be most fitting to give the team members a short time to agree with that. (David, as team captain, may of course over-rule me.:smile:) A couple of simple alternative lines which look bad to me, but I could be wrong: 16.Bxe4 d5 (alternatively Black might prefer 16...Nf5 first) 17.Qb3 Kh8 18.Bg2 Nf5 and Black seems to have all the fun to me. Or 16.Bg2 exd3 17.Bxb7 dxe2 18.Qxe2 (18.Bd5+? Kh8! 19.Qxe2 Nxd5 wins our bishop) Rb8 and Black's a pawn up, has the central control, and our bishop pair looks to be inadequate compensation. So at the moment I agree with Sergey that 16.dxe4 is the only reasonable move. It's the move we were anticipating playing as the response to ...fxe4.

2013-01-25, 13:02	#3
henryzz Just call me Henry "David" Sep 2007 Liverpool (GMT/BST) 3·23·89 Posts	I agree with Brian. I think it best if at least 2 preferably 3 people look at it before hand. Mistakes are only too easy to make. I also think it useful to re-explain why it is the better move like Brian just did. I also agree with the move dxe4. This might be a good time to go over our next move deeper.

2013-01-25, 15:07	#4
richs "Rich" Aug 2002 Benicia, California 6B6₁₆ Posts	We like to chat anyway.....

2013-01-25, 21:28	#5
Zeta-Flux May 2003 1547₁₀ Posts	I think that 16. dxe4 is indeed the best move. At that point, black's options seem to be either d5 or exf4. I've played 3 games with the exf4, and won only 1. But the last time it was because I played a better line than the other two times. I think we have to play dxe4. We can continue discussing options in the meantime, but let's announce our move now. Cheers, Zeta-Flux

2013-01-25, 21:44	#6
henryzz Just call me Henry "David" Sep 2007 Liverpool (GMT/BST) 3×23×89 Posts	[QUOTE=Zeta-Flux;325833]I think that 16. dxe4 is indeed the best move. At that point, black's options seem to be either d5 or exf4. I've played 3 games with the exf4, and won only 1. But the last time it was because I played a better line than the other two times. I think we have to play dxe4. We can continue discussing options in the meantime, but let's announce our move now. Cheers, Zeta-Flux[/QUOTE] I will post. Everyone has at least seen this.

2013-01-25, 22:53	#7
henryzz Just call me Henry "David" Sep 2007 Liverpool (GMT/BST) 3·23·89 Posts	[QUOTE=Zeta-Flux;325833]I think that 16. dxe4 is indeed the best move. At that point, black's options seem to be either d5 or exf4. I've played 3 games with the exf4, and won only 1. But the last time it was because I played a better line than the other two times. I think we have to play dxe4. We can continue discussing options in the meantime, but let's announce our move now. Cheers, Zeta-Flux[/QUOTE] I can't see the point in them doing exf4 for their next move. If we reply Bxf4, our dark bishop has freedom to attack their pawn on d6 along with our queen. I would call this an improvement in position for us. They can course do Be5 an exchange bishops. This looks an even position for me. If we reply Nxf4, we are threatening Ne6 forking their queen, rook and bishop. Black can escape without loss or piece but loses position. Did playing this line make it look better Zeta? Did I miss something obvious? The other main option is d5. I think this much more likely. Apologies if I made mistakes typing, the backspace on my keyboard is going. The spell check caught most of them.

2013-01-25, 22:59	#8
Zeta-Flux May 2003 7·13·17 Posts	[QUOTE=henryzz;325840] If we reply Nxf4, we are threatening Ne6 forking their queen, rook and bishop. Black can escape without loss or piece but loses position. Did playing this line make it look better Zeta? Did I miss something obvious? The other main option is d5. I think this much more likely. Apologies if I made mistakes typing, the backspace on my keyboard is going. The spell check caught most of them.[/QUOTE]I played the Nxf4 line all 3 times. Black responded with Qd7. The best response to that which I came up with was c4. (These were quick games though, so shouldn't be relied on too much.)

2013-01-25, 23:02	#9
Zeta-Flux May 2003 7·13·17 Posts	So what are our options under d5?

2013-01-25, 23:31	#10
henryzz Just call me Henry "David" Sep 2007 Liverpool (GMT/BST) 1011111111101₂ Posts	[QUOTE=Zeta-Flux;325841]I played the Nxf4 line all 3 times. Black responded with Qd7. The best response to that which I came up with was c4. (These were quick games though, so shouldn't be relied on too much.)[/QUOTE] ... exf4 17. Nxf4 Qd7 18. c4 is still a good position for us IMO. We have stopped him doing d5(all his pieces focus on that square) and have opened the way to Nd5 ourselves. d5 is the one to think about.

2013-01-26, 00:03	#11
henryzz Just call me Henry "David" Sep 2007 Liverpool (GMT/BST) 3×23×89 Posts	d5 leaves our pawn on e4 a bit exposed. We can't take back with our bishop after dxe4. We must either take his pawn with ours(exd5), defend our pawn(Qd3, Qc2, Qa4) or stop him taking our pawn(Qb3).[LIST][]exd5 Allows black to do Bxd5 or worse Nxd5. After Nxd5 black has a central knight that looks very powerful. We are forced to either move our dark bishop(can't see a good spot) or exchange our light bishop. If we echange our light bishop we would struggle to get his white bishop.[]Qd3 Black can do c4 forcing our queen to move again. I can't see any advantage in letting him move c4 for free.[]Qc2 Looks intriguing. Black can do d4 which at first glace looks horrible but we can reply Rbd1 pinning his pawn to his queen.[]Qa4 Black can counter Bc6 forcing the queen to move.[*]Qb3 Pins the pawn on d5, however like Qd3 black can respond c4 forcing the queen to move again.[/LIST] A later thought I had on Qb3 or Qd3 is that after ... d5 17. Q(bd)3 c4 18. Qc2 we are in a better position against d4 as the c pawn is no longer defending d4. The c4 pawn is also not very strong itself. The options seem to be Qc2 or Q(bd)3. I think d5 still looks to be black's better move. exf4 seems to relax black's pressure on white rather than add more like d5.