Move 15 - Page 2

Brian-E · 2013-01-16, 09:17

[QUOTE=Zeta-Flux;324877]Yes. Except, why not 15. exf5 Bxf3 16. f6 Bxe2 Qxe2. We still have the fork in play (and black will probably have to move his bishop to force us to take the knight) and we have pieces bearing down the two files that are now opening up.[/QUOTE]
After 15.exf5 Bxf3 16.f6 Bxe2 17.Qxe2 Bxf6 18.gxf6 Nd5 looks better for Black to me, and Black also even seems to get away with the greedy 18...Rxf6 19.fxe5 Rxf1+ 20.Rxf1 dxe5 21.Bh6 (or 21.Qf2 Qd5 followed by ...Nf5) Qd5 22.Qf2 Nf5 with an extra pawn. Can we do better than this? It looks bad to me.

[QUOTE]Another possible response from black is, instead of ... Bxf3 to immediately move Nxf5. We then play 16. Bxb7, and some interesting play ensues.[/QUOTE]Yes, but I think Black gets a better game with 15...Bxf3.

[QUOTE=richs;324902]If 15 ... Nxf5 (which is the better play for black) 16. Bxb7 then 16 ... Nxe3 17. Qe1 Nxf1 18. Bxa8 Qxa8 19. Qxf1 and the board is simplified, although the black Queen controls the white diagonal.[/QUOTE]
I don't currently see why 15...Nxf5 is a better move for Black. The line you give is alright for us, I think, but unless we can find a clear path to a reasonable position after 15.exf5 Bxf3 I don't think we can play 15.exf5.

henryzz · 2013-01-16, 15:55

Is c4 more of an option now? Although it weakens our dark squares his access to them is blocked and it strengthens our white squares(his colour weakness). It would stop him doing d5 which could a very probliematic move for us.
I can't really see what c3 does for us. Bg2 followed by Ng3 looks like it would have some promise.
Sorry I haven't been very talkative on this move. It is exam period at uni. Next move I will have tons of time.

Brian-E · 2013-01-16, 18:23

[QUOTE=henryzz;324918]Is c4 more of an option now? Although it weakens our dark squares his access to them is blocked and it strengthens our white squares(his colour weakness). It would stop him doing d5 which could a very probliematic move for us.
I can't really see what c3 does for us. Bg2 followed by Ng3 looks like it would have some promise.
Sorry I haven't been very talkative on this move. It is exam period at uni. Next move I will have tons of time.[/QUOTE]
Sorry that I seem to be over-talkative, but there's lots to discuss and I am in the fortunate position of never having to sit an exam again. I do not envy you.

I, too, think 15.Bg2 is a good move.
15.c4 is the sort of move we should consider if we're very sure we can make good use of the d5 square and the half-open file against d6 if Black is so obliging as to play ...fxe4 allowing us to recapture with our d pawn. But while Black has the option of using their long diagonal (after playing ...exf4 for example) and manoeuvring their knight to d4, I think we are better advised to abstain from it for the time being at least.

henryzz · 2013-01-16, 19:46

He can't currently do exf4. If he did we do Nxf4. He then has to stop us moving our knight to e6 and forking the queen, rook and his dark bishop. This would tie up his queen.

Talkativeness isn't a problem. It is good that you have the free time to spend on a move like this.

Brian-E · 2013-01-16, 20:13

They have the option of opening the long dark diagonal at any later moment which is convenient to them (if we don't open it ourselves with fxe5), in other words when they don't have to worry about our knight coming to e6. That flexibility is not matched by our weakness of [I]never again[/I] being able to control d4 with a pawn, or setting up the diagonal block with pawns on b2 and c3, once we have moved the c pawn to c4.

Zeta-Flux · 2013-01-16, 21:32

I like Bg2 the best of the options so far.

Brian-E · 2013-01-17, 10:08

Either 15.Bg2 or 15.c3 can reckon on my support at the moment.

henryzz · 2013-01-17, 11:54

Bg2 for me.

richs · 2013-01-18, 04:56

I can go along with Bg2 assuming the following: 15. Bg2 fxe4 16. dxe4 d5 17. Ng3 which leaves us in a decent position.

Brian-E · 2013-01-18, 10:00

[QUOTE=richs;325091]I can go along with Bg2 assuming the following: 15. Bg2 fxe4 16. dxe4 d5 17. Ng3 which leaves us in a decent position.[/QUOTE]
This is an important line that you've drawn to our attention. I'm not too sure if we're then okay after 17...d4 18.Bd2 exf4 19.Bxf4 c4 intending ...a6 and ...b5 with a dominating queenside majority.
Can anyone demonstrate a reasonable plan for us here?
Otherwise I now strongly favour 15.c3, not 15.Bg2, to counter Black's queenside expansion while we still can.

henryzz · 2013-01-18, 14:51

If we don't come to a conclusion by midnight someone else might have to post before the deadline. I have a 9:30 exam and might forget/not be able to to come on.

Bg2 does look a little sketchy after d5. I change my vote to c3 unless someone comes up with something good.
I reckon c3 should be the move posted if we don't come to a conclusion as it is safer.

2013-01-16, 09:17	#12
Brian-E "Brian" Jul 2007 The Netherlands 2·11·149 Posts	[QUOTE=Zeta-Flux;324877]Yes. Except, why not 15. exf5 Bxf3 16. f6 Bxe2 Qxe2. We still have the fork in play (and black will probably have to move his bishop to force us to take the knight) and we have pieces bearing down the two files that are now opening up.[/QUOTE] After 15.exf5 Bxf3 16.f6 Bxe2 17.Qxe2 Bxf6 18.gxf6 Nd5 looks better for Black to me, and Black also even seems to get away with the greedy 18...Rxf6 19.fxe5 Rxf1+ 20.Rxf1 dxe5 21.Bh6 (or 21.Qf2 Qd5 followed by ...Nf5) Qd5 22.Qf2 Nf5 with an extra pawn. Can we do better than this? It looks bad to me. [QUOTE]Another possible response from black is, instead of ... Bxf3 to immediately move Nxf5. We then play 16. Bxb7, and some interesting play ensues.[/QUOTE]Yes, but I think Black gets a better game with 15...Bxf3. [QUOTE=richs;324902]If 15 ... Nxf5 (which is the better play for black) 16. Bxb7 then 16 ... Nxe3 17. Qe1 Nxf1 18. Bxa8 Qxa8 19. Qxf1 and the board is simplified, although the black Queen controls the white diagonal.[/QUOTE] I don't currently see why 15...Nxf5 is a better move for Black. The line you give is alright for us, I think, but unless we can find a clear path to a reasonable position after 15.exf5 Bxf3 I don't think we can play 15.exf5. Last fiddled with by Brian-E on 2013-01-16 at 09:21 Reason: added a minor note

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2013-01-16, 15:55	#13
henryzz Just call me Henry "David" Sep 2007 Liverpool (GMT/BST) 13775₈ Posts	Is c4 more of an option now? Although it weakens our dark squares his access to them is blocked and it strengthens our white squares(his colour weakness). It would stop him doing d5 which could a very probliematic move for us. I can't really see what c3 does for us. Bg2 followed by Ng3 looks like it would have some promise. Sorry I haven't been very talkative on this move. It is exam period at uni. Next move I will have tons of time.

2013-01-16, 18:23	#14
Brian-E "Brian" Jul 2007 The Netherlands 2×11×149 Posts	[QUOTE=henryzz;324918]Is c4 more of an option now? Although it weakens our dark squares his access to them is blocked and it strengthens our white squares(his colour weakness). It would stop him doing d5 which could a very probliematic move for us. I can't really see what c3 does for us. Bg2 followed by Ng3 looks like it would have some promise. Sorry I haven't been very talkative on this move. It is exam period at uni. Next move I will have tons of time.[/QUOTE] Sorry that I seem to be over-talkative, but there's lots to discuss and I am in the fortunate position of never having to sit an exam again. I do not envy you. I, too, think 15.Bg2 is a good move. 15.c4 is the sort of move we should consider if we're very sure we can make good use of the d5 square and the half-open file against d6 if Black is so obliging as to play ...fxe4 allowing us to recapture with our d pawn. But while Black has the option of using their long diagonal (after playing ...exf4 for example) and manoeuvring their knight to d4, I think we are better advised to abstain from it for the time being at least.

2013-01-16, 19:46	#15
henryzz Just call me Henry "David" Sep 2007 Liverpool (GMT/BST) 3×23×89 Posts	He can't currently do exf4. If he did we do Nxf4. He then has to stop us moving our knight to e6 and forking the queen, rook and his dark bishop. This would tie up his queen. Talkativeness isn't a problem. It is good that you have the free time to spend on a move like this.

2013-01-16, 20:13	#16
Brian-E "Brian" Jul 2007 The Netherlands 2×11×149 Posts	They have the option of opening the long dark diagonal at any later moment which is convenient to them (if we don't open it ourselves with fxe5), in other words when they don't have to worry about our knight coming to e6. That flexibility is not matched by our weakness of [I]never again[/I] being able to control d4 with a pawn, or setting up the diagonal block with pawns on b2 and c3, once we have moved the c pawn to c4.

2013-01-16, 21:32	#17
Zeta-Flux May 2003 60B₁₆ Posts	I like Bg2 the best of the options so far.

2013-01-17, 10:08	#18
Brian-E "Brian" Jul 2007 The Netherlands 6316₈ Posts	Either 15.Bg2 or 15.c3 can reckon on my support at the moment.

2013-01-17, 11:54	#19
henryzz Just call me Henry "David" Sep 2007 Liverpool (GMT/BST) 3×23×89 Posts	Bg2 for me.

2013-01-18, 04:56	#20
richs "Rich" Aug 2002 Benicia, California 2×859 Posts	I can go along with Bg2 assuming the following: 15. Bg2 fxe4 16. dxe4 d5 17. Ng3 which leaves us in a decent position.

2013-01-18, 10:00	#21
Brian-E "Brian" Jul 2007 The Netherlands CCE₁₆ Posts	[QUOTE=richs;325091]I can go along with Bg2 assuming the following: 15. Bg2 fxe4 16. dxe4 d5 17. Ng3 which leaves us in a decent position.[/QUOTE] This is an important line that you've drawn to our attention. I'm not too sure if we're then okay after 17...d4 18.Bd2 exf4 19.Bxf4 c4 intending ...a6 and ...b5 with a dominating queenside majority. Can anyone demonstrate a reasonable plan for us here? Otherwise I now strongly favour 15.c3, not 15.Bg2, to counter Black's queenside expansion while we still can.

2013-01-18, 14:51	#22
henryzz Just call me Henry "David" Sep 2007 Liverpool (GMT/BST) 3·23·89 Posts	If we don't come to a conclusion by midnight someone else might have to post before the deadline. I have a 9:30 exam and might forget/not be able to to come on. Bg2 does look a little sketchy after d5. I change my vote to c3 unless someone comes up with something good. I reckon c3 should be the move posted if we don't come to a conclusion as it is safer.