Move 15

Brian-E · 2013-01-12, 22:29

Looking at their move 14...e5 positionally, they seem to have denounced any ambition of gaining f5 or d5 for their knight - if we're prepared to leave their pawn on f5 alone and reply to ...fxe4 with dxe4. I look forward to keeping light squared bishops on the board and trying to exploit Black's weakened light squares d5 and e6, using either of the diagonals a2-g8 or h3-c8.

Of course Black has introduced their own chances though with their move. They may have prospects on the f-file which is likely to be opened. And our advanced g-pawn may become a liability needing protection.

It's tricky.

henryzz · 2013-01-12, 22:59

It does look a tricky position. There are lots of routes it could take. Finding which routes we can control and are best for us could be tricky. I need to think for a bit.

Brian-E · 2013-01-13, 17:48

I'm obviously keen to read what concrete ideas other team members come up with, but here's my current thinking just to keep the discussion going for now:

I'm currently in favour of playing a quiet move and letting Black resolve the central tension if they're going to. I don't like 15.exf5 because it gives Black back the squares d5 and f5 and really seems to hand them the initiative after 15...Bxf3 16.Rxf3 Nxf5 with ...d5 to follow. And I don't like 15.fxe5 either because after 15....dxe5 Black's threat of ...f4 may give them good play.

A nice waiting move might be 15.Qd2. This connects our rooks and puts the queen on a square where it may either usefully defend g5 or (more actively) swing across to the kingside along the second rank once our knight is out of the way.

There may be other good, "quiet" moves too, doing something constructive while waiting to see what Black does.

richs · 2013-01-14, 04:52

Very complex.... I'll see what I come up with tomorrow.

richs · 2013-01-15, 02:28

As an alternate, how about 15. c3 d5 16. Qc2 c4 17. Rbd1 cxd3 18. Rxd3 ...?

Brian-E · 2013-01-15, 14:09

[QUOTE=richs;324761]As an alternate, how about 15. c3 d5 16. Qc2 c4 17. Rbd1 cxd3 18. Rxd3 ...?[/QUOTE]
15.c3 might be a good move, yes. But in the line you give, 15...d5 16.Qc2 fxe4 (instead of ...c4) 17.dxe4 d4 may put us in trouble, I think. Black will get a protected passed d pawn which will be far stronger than our resulting passed e pawn, e.g. 18.cxd4 (18.Bf2? d3 wins a piece because 19.Rbd1 is answered by 19...dxc2 20.Rxd8 Raxd8 winning a rook) exd4 19.Qc4+ Kh8 20.Bd2 Rc8 intending ...a6, ...b5 etc. Black's much better here.

15.c3 d5 16.fxe5 looks okay at first glance. But I need to look further at this.

Zeta-Flux · 2013-01-15, 17:45

I think c3 is a respectable move. Alternatively, we could push h4 and just go ahead and protect the g pawn from their queen.

I thinks Ng3 fails to the counter-attack starting exf4... We probably don't want to move our knight just yet.

What about exf5?

Brian-E · 2013-01-15, 18:24

15.exf5 doesn't look playable to me because after 15...Bxf3 16.Rxf3 (not 16.f6? Bxe2 winning a piece) Nxf5 and our position looks miserable to me. Kingside is full of holes, Black has all the prospects in the centre and on the long dark diagonal. Or am I misjudging this?

Otherwise I agree with you Zeta-Flux that richs' suggestion of 15.c3 is a respectable choice, and also that our knight should stay put in its defensive duties of f4 for the moment. 15.h4 seems a little unnecessary to me right now, though, and since it creates more kingside weaknesses I think we should avoid it for now at least. But my judgment could well be faulty here (as always!).

Brian-E · 2013-01-15, 18:41

Hmm, that post was too hasty. Is 15.exf5 Bxf3 16.f6 possible after all? 16...Bxe2 does [I]not[/I] win a piece because of 17.fxe7 and if 17...Bxd1 18.exd8=Q Black will have to take the new queen, losing the bishop on d1. Is this what you had in mind, Zeta-Flux?

Zeta-Flux · 2013-01-16, 00:30

[QUOTE=Brian-E;324825]Hmm, that post was too hasty. Is 15.exf5 Bxf3 16.f6 possible after all? 16...Bxe2 does [I]not[/I] win a piece because of 17.fxe7 and if 17...Bxd1 18.exd8=Q Black will have to take the new queen, losing the bishop on d1. Is this what you had in mind, Zeta-Flux?[/QUOTE]

Yes. Except, why not 15. exf5 Bxf3 16. f6 Bxe2 Qxe2. We still have the fork in play (and black will probably have to move his bishop to force us to take the knight) and we have pieces bearing down the two files that are now opening up.

Another possible response from black is, instead of ... Bxf3 to immediately move Nxf5. We then play 16. Bxb7, and some interesting play ensues.

richs · 2013-01-16, 04:57

If 15 ... Nxf5 (which is the better play for black) 16. Bxb7 then 16 ... Nxe3 17. Qe1 Nxf1 18. Bxa8 Qxa8 19. Qxf1 and the board is simplified, although the black Queen controls the white diagonal.

2013-01-12, 22:29	#1
Brian-E "Brian" Jul 2007 The Netherlands 2×11×149 Posts	Move 15 Looking at their move 14...e5 positionally, they seem to have denounced any ambition of gaining f5 or d5 for their knight - if we're prepared to leave their pawn on f5 alone and reply to ...fxe4 with dxe4. I look forward to keeping light squared bishops on the board and trying to exploit Black's weakened light squares d5 and e6, using either of the diagonals a2-g8 or h3-c8. Of course Black has introduced their own chances though with their move. They may have prospects on the f-file which is likely to be opened. And our advanced g-pawn may become a liability needing protection. It's tricky.

2013-01-16, 04:57	#11
richs "Rich" Aug 2002 Benicia, California 2×859 Posts	If 15 ... Nxf5 (which is the better play for black) 16. Bxb7 then 16 ... Nxe3 17. Qe1 Nxf1 18. Bxa8 Qxa8 19. Qxf1 and the board is simplified, although the black Queen controls the white diagonal. Last fiddled with by richs on 2013-01-16 at 04:59 Reason: moved parenthetical clause

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2013-01-12, 22:59	#2
henryzz Just call me Henry "David" Sep 2007 Liverpool (GMT/BST) 3·23·89 Posts	It does look a tricky position. There are lots of routes it could take. Finding which routes we can control and are best for us could be tricky. I need to think for a bit.

2013-01-13, 17:48	#3
Brian-E "Brian" Jul 2007 The Netherlands 110011001110₂ Posts	I'm obviously keen to read what concrete ideas other team members come up with, but here's my current thinking just to keep the discussion going for now: I'm currently in favour of playing a quiet move and letting Black resolve the central tension if they're going to. I don't like 15.exf5 because it gives Black back the squares d5 and f5 and really seems to hand them the initiative after 15...Bxf3 16.Rxf3 Nxf5 with ...d5 to follow. And I don't like 15.fxe5 either because after 15....dxe5 Black's threat of ...f4 may give them good play. A nice waiting move might be 15.Qd2. This connects our rooks and puts the queen on a square where it may either usefully defend g5 or (more actively) swing across to the kingside along the second rank once our knight is out of the way. There may be other good, "quiet" moves too, doing something constructive while waiting to see what Black does.

2013-01-14, 04:52	#4
richs "Rich" Aug 2002 Benicia, California 2×859 Posts	Very complex.... I'll see what I come up with tomorrow.

2013-01-15, 02:28	#5
richs "Rich" Aug 2002 Benicia, California 2·859 Posts	As an alternate, how about 15. c3 d5 16. Qc2 c4 17. Rbd1 cxd3 18. Rxd3 ...?

2013-01-15, 14:09	#6
Brian-E "Brian" Jul 2007 The Netherlands 6316₈ Posts	[QUOTE=richs;324761]As an alternate, how about 15. c3 d5 16. Qc2 c4 17. Rbd1 cxd3 18. Rxd3 ...?[/QUOTE] 15.c3 might be a good move, yes. But in the line you give, 15...d5 16.Qc2 fxe4 (instead of ...c4) 17.dxe4 d4 may put us in trouble, I think. Black will get a protected passed d pawn which will be far stronger than our resulting passed e pawn, e.g. 18.cxd4 (18.Bf2? d3 wins a piece because 19.Rbd1 is answered by 19...dxc2 20.Rxd8 Raxd8 winning a rook) exd4 19.Qc4+ Kh8 20.Bd2 Rc8 intending ...a6, ...b5 etc. Black's much better here. 15.c3 d5 16.fxe5 looks okay at first glance. But I need to look further at this.

2013-01-15, 17:45	#7
Zeta-Flux May 2003 7·13·17 Posts	I think c3 is a respectable move. Alternatively, we could push h4 and just go ahead and protect the g pawn from their queen. I thinks Ng3 fails to the counter-attack starting exf4... We probably don't want to move our knight just yet. What about exf5?

2013-01-15, 18:24	#8
Brian-E "Brian" Jul 2007 The Netherlands 2×11×149 Posts	15.exf5 doesn't look playable to me because after 15...Bxf3 16.Rxf3 (not 16.f6? Bxe2 winning a piece) Nxf5 and our position looks miserable to me. Kingside is full of holes, Black has all the prospects in the centre and on the long dark diagonal. Or am I misjudging this? Otherwise I agree with you Zeta-Flux that richs' suggestion of 15.c3 is a respectable choice, and also that our knight should stay put in its defensive duties of f4 for the moment. 15.h4 seems a little unnecessary to me right now, though, and since it creates more kingside weaknesses I think we should avoid it for now at least. But my judgment could well be faulty here (as always!).

2013-01-15, 18:41	#9
Brian-E "Brian" Jul 2007 The Netherlands 3278₁₀ Posts	Hmm, that post was too hasty. Is 15.exf5 Bxf3 16.f6 possible after all? 16...Bxe2 does [I]not[/I] win a piece because of 17.fxe7 and if 17...Bxd1 18.exd8=Q Black will have to take the new queen, losing the bishop on d1. Is this what you had in mind, Zeta-Flux?

2013-01-16, 00:30	#10
Zeta-Flux May 2003 11000001011₂ Posts	[QUOTE=Brian-E;324825]Hmm, that post was too hasty. Is 15.exf5 Bxf3 16.f6 possible after all? 16...Bxe2 does [I]not[/I] win a piece because of 17.fxe7 and if 17...Bxd1 18.exd8=Q Black will have to take the new queen, losing the bishop on d1. Is this what you had in mind, Zeta-Flux?[/QUOTE] Yes. Except, why not 15. exf5 Bxf3 16. f6 Bxe2 Qxe2. We still have the fork in play (and black will probably have to move his bishop to force us to take the knight) and we have pieces bearing down the two files that are now opening up. Another possible response from black is, instead of ... Bxf3 to immediately move Nxf5. We then play 16. Bxb7, and some interesting play ensues.