Black Move S1 (=s0^2-2=14)

LaurV · 2013-01-07, 17:32

What does he want with that pown in g5, god knows. We shall start simplifying the board, we are now again in control of the center, and their king is more open then ours. 14...fxe4, seems the best.

14...h6 seems good too, he can't take it because we take it with the bishop and his both pawns in the middle are locked. I don't really like this because then we repeat their mistake: we open our king too much, too, same like they did.

14...e5 is also a a brilliant move, and let them do the first blood, so we can then recapture with some heavy wood and develop our heavy pieces (rook, knight bishop, depends if he capture and what).

I am not decided yet. He does not seems to do so good if ht takes the pawn, in fact that would be a mistake, so I am also thinking that it can be good to let everything like it is, and develop some other piece. But which, and where? Qd7? Rf7?

What other ppl here think?

This game is interesting as neither player wants to capture, hehe, everybody is afraid to jump in the pool and only try the water with the biggest toe..., then say buuurrrrrrr....

P.S.: I go to Bangkok for the next days, job related trip. I won't access the forum.

science_man_88 · 2013-01-07, 18:23

[QUOTE=LaurV;323939][B]What does he want with that pown in g5, god knows.[/B] We shall start simplifying the board, we are now again in control of the center, and their king is more open then ours. 14...fxe4, seems the best.

14...h6 seems good too, he can't take it because we take it with the bishop and his both pawns in the middle are locked. I don't really like this because then we repeat their mistake: we open our king too much, too, same like they did.

14...e5 is also a a brilliant move, and let them do the first blood, so we can then recapture with some heavy wood and develop our heavy pieces (rook, knight bishop, depends if he capture and what).

I am not decided yet. He does not seems to do so good if ht takes the pawn, in fact that would be a mistake, so I am also thinking that it can be good to let everything like it is, and develop some other piece. But which, and where? Qd7? Rf7?

What other ppl here think?

This game is interesting as neither player wants to capture, hehe, everybody is afraid to jump in the pool and only try the water with the biggest toe..., then say buuurrrrrrr....

P.S.: I go to Bangkok for the next days, job related trip. I won't access the forum.[/QUOTE]

my guess is to stop us taking that piece, and block the lane, and give the dark square bishop almost no place to safely move.

edit: oh it also limits the usefulness of or h pawn, h6 gets us gxh6, and even if we come back with the capture it hasn't gained us much, h5 gets us a possible en-passant with the same possible result

Dubslow · 2013-01-07, 22:54

I don't like pushing h, for reasons already mentioned.

Our dark square bishop is fine where it is, it's playing defense more than offense.

e5 is pretty interesting, and creates sort of the same "trap" as discussed a few moves ago if they respond with 15 exf5 Nxf5. If the game continued as (e.g.) 16 Bxb7 Nxe3 17 Qe1 Nxf1 18 Qxf1, then we would be forced to chase their white bishop to remain even in pieces, and chasing it could give them the strategic edge. ---- OTOH If they respond 15 fxe5, we could play either Bxe5 or dxe5 -- I don't like the former, I think the bishop should stay on defense -- but the latter is okay, and I don't think we lose any position on the exchange.

Finally, since their white bishop is key to their defense the same as our dark is key, I think we should just straight up attack it with 14...fxe4 (but if they respond 15 Bxe4 Bxe4 16 dxe4, then our position is rather closed and they have the advantage I think... maybe we should do e5).

PS Called it :razz:
[QUOTE=Dubslow;323501]Personally though, I don't see exf5 as too big a possibility. g5 is more interesting.[/QUOTE]

LaurV · 2013-01-09, 17:35

Back to home. I had a small look to 14...d5 move, I don't like it. If he push e5, then all the king's flank is blocked for both sides, and who wins the battle on the queen's side - wins the game. He can reach the queen side faster with the horse, and it can benefit from support from both bishops, during our black-square bishop is blocked on g7 and we can only support the fight on b and c columns with only one bishop. This may be white easy win. So, this move is not good.

I also had a look to Nc6 - controls d4, e5 squares, can be moved to d4 later and regain the control we once had "behind enemy lines", but this time he can easily exchange it, without much benefit for us. I don't really like it.

The "fight" should be between "[B]14...fxe4[/B]" and "[B]14...e5[/B]". These moves are both good (I think) and active.

[QUOTE=Dubslow;323973]e5 is pretty interesting, and creates sort of the same "trap" as discussed a few moves ago if they respond with 15 exf5 Nxf5. If the game continued as (e.g.) 16 Bxb7 Nxe3 17 Qe1 Nxf1 18 Qxf1, then we would be forced to chase their white bishop to remain even in pieces, and chasing it could give them the strategic edge.[/QUOTE]
What do you mean "chase their bishop"? This version will be very good for us, we go 18...Rb8 and we have a rook against a horse, or even better, we can take 18...exf4 and we have a pawn and a rook against a horse. Of course, he still can capture our rook, but look to that position after Bxa8, Qxa8, the black pawn is almost queen and white will have no chance there except give "a big wood" for it. I thing 16.Bxb7 is a terrible bad move for white, and I don't believe they are so weak to fall into this trap.

[QUOTE=Dubslow;323973] OTOH If they respond 15 fxe5, we could play either Bxe5 or dxe5 -- I don't like the former, I think the bishop should stay on defense -- but the latter is okay, and I don't think we lose any position on the exchange.[/QUOTE]

Yes, 15 fxe5 might be better response from them, indeed. After our Bxe5, they can safely play Bf4, and we might exchange some material (or not?) with advantage for white... (he easyed the defense of our king, with no additional cost for him, if we exchange the black-square bishops).

[QUOTE=Dubslow;323973]Finally, since their white bishop is key to their defense the same as our dark is key, I think we should just straight up attack it with 14...fxe4 (but if they respond 15 Bxe4 Bxe4 16 dxe4, then our position is rather closed and they have the advantage I think... maybe we should do e5).
[/QUOTE]
15 Bxe4 would be worse than 15 dxe4, for sure, because of 15...d5, bishop go somewhere, 16...Nf5 and he has to retreat black-square bishop too. His best threat to 14...fxe4 should be 15 dxe4, followed by our 15...d5. And we relaunch the battle for that two squares. Of course, no one can force them to take it. He can push e5 and we are blocked again on the king side. If I am thinking more to this, I like 14...e5 better...

Grrrr.... This is freaking position.

Dubslow · 2013-01-09, 18:20

[QUOTE=LaurV;324171]
Yes, 15 fxe5 might be better response from them, indeed. After our Bxe5, they can safely play Bf4, and we might exchange some material (or not?) with advantage for white... (he easyed the defense of our king, with no additional cost for him, if we exchange the black-square bishops).[/quote]
What about dxe5?

[QUOTE=LaurV;324171]
15 Bxe4 would be worse than 15 dxe4, for sure, because of 15...d5, bishop go somewhere, 16...Nf5 and he has to retreat black-square bishop too. His best threat to 14...fxe4 should be 15 dxe4, followed by our 15...d5. And we relaunch the battle for that two squares. Of course, no one can force them to take it. He can push e5 and we are blocked again on the king side. If I am thinking more to this, I like 14...e5 better...[/quote]Many possibilities... (16...Nf5 17. Bf2 {Qd8|Qc8} 18. ... d4)
[QUOTE=LaurV;324171]
Grrrr.... This is freaking position.[/QUOTE]
Quite. :smile:

sm_88?

LaurV · 2013-01-09, 19:13

[QUOTE=Dubslow;324178]What about dxe5?[/QUOTE]
Not clear why 15...dxe5 should be better than 15...Bxe5 (I think is not, they are somehow equivalent, I prefer to develop the bishop), but I definitively like [B]14...e5[/B] more that [STRIKE]14...fxe4[/STRIKE].

Much more.

Because on this variant is much easier for white to make mistakes :cool:. If they play it right, it may not be any difference. But first, there is the trap with f5, if they take it, and take the bishop too, they are doomed. Then, even if they take e5 instead, the pawn in g5 would be difficult to defend, forcing them either to keep the bishop blocked, or to move h4. This somehow would protect OUR king from "side attacks" on the h column, so we can concentrate on the center. If we capture 15.fxe5,Bxe5 and he moves anything else except the 16.Bf4, we still can capture 16...fxe4 (depending on his move) or not, so we still have this option. If he moves Bf4, we still can avoid the exchange and defend our bishop with Nc6, developing the knight in case he takes the bishop. If not, we can retreat the bishop back, and we have already moved the knight one step to defend the b and c columns (he still might get some advantage there, even if our knght is faster now, because of his two bishops that are dominating all the board, those bishops are somehow scary there, but we can't do too much for it right now).

[B]14...e5[/B] is definitively the best move we can do, in my opinion. I go to sleep now, 2:12 AM here.

science_man_88 · 2013-01-09, 22:53

[QUOTE=Dubslow;324178]What about dxe5?

Many possibilities... (16...Nf5 17. Bf2 {Qd8|Qc8} 18. ... d4)

Quite. :smile:

sm_88?[/QUOTE]

just a bunch of hopeless moves as far as I see. e5 they can get us to block the diagonal or possibly do a bishop trade if we/they respond,to capture e4 appears to be a good way to lose pieces, the good part on d5 is that it's protected, h pawn seems hopeless, c4 overextends there may be back end move better than some of these,but then we can't gain ground. I may be wrong though.

LaurV · 2013-01-10, 01:49

[QUOTE=science_man_88;324208]just a bunch of hopeless moves as far as I see[/QUOTE]
Assuming you play white, what would you respond to e5?

science_man_88 · 2013-01-10, 13:05

[QUOTE=LaurV;324217]Assuming you play white, what would you respond to e5?[/QUOTE]

I could do fxe5 if Bxe5 comes into things Bf4 can be an attempted sacrifice to get that other bishop off the board ( it would be protected by the knight).

LaurV · 2013-01-10, 14:03

[QUOTE=science_man_88;324273]I could do fxe5 if Bxe5 comes into things Bf4 can be an attempted sacrifice to get that other bishop off the board ( it would be protected by the knight).[/QUOTE]
Ok, assuming the game continues like you said, this I already analyzed before. 14...e5 15 fxe5 Bxe5 16 Bf4 Nc6 and let them take the bishop if they want, after which it would be difficult for them to scare out our knight from e5, beside of defending the pawn in g5, which can be taken with check! by our queen. The situation is not so dark for us, as the people are saying :razz: we still have hope to win this game.... Of course he might have better answers that this, but I can't find any right now.

science_man_88 · 2013-01-10, 14:24

[QUOTE=LaurV;324276]Ok, assuming the game continues like you said, this I already analyzed before. 14...e5 15 fxe5 Bxe5 16 Bf4 Nc6 and let them take the bishop if they want, after which it would be difficult for them to scare out our knight from e5, beside of defending the pawn in g5, which can be taken with check! by our queen. The situation is not so dark for us, as the people are saying :razz: we still have hope to win this game.... Of course he might have better answers that this, but I can't find any right now.[/QUOTE]

there's still a lot of bad looking moves to me but I get your point.

2013-01-07, 17:32	#1
LaurV Romulan Interpreter "name field" Jun 2011 Thailand 10291₁₀ Posts	Black Move S1 (=s0^2-2=14) What does he want with that pown in g5, god knows. We shall start simplifying the board, we are now again in control of the center, and their king is more open then ours. 14...fxe4, seems the best. 14...h6 seems good too, he can't take it because we take it with the bishop and his both pawns in the middle are locked. I don't really like this because then we repeat their mistake: we open our king too much, too, same like they did. 14...e5 is also a a brilliant move, and let them do the first blood, so we can then recapture with some heavy wood and develop our heavy pieces (rook, knight bishop, depends if he capture and what). I am not decided yet. He does not seems to do so good if ht takes the pawn, in fact that would be a mistake, so I am also thinking that it can be good to let everything like it is, and develop some other piece. But which, and where? Qd7? Rf7? What other ppl here think? This game is interesting as neither player wants to capture, hehe, everybody is afraid to jump in the pool and only try the water with the biggest toe..., then say buuurrrrrrr.... P.S.: I go to Bangkok for the next days, job related trip. I won't access the forum. Last fiddled with by LaurV on 2013-01-07 at 17:36

2013-01-07, 18:23	#2
science_man_88 "Forget I exist" Jul 2009 Dartmouth NS 8,461 Posts	[QUOTE=LaurV;323939][B]What does he want with that pown in g5, god knows.[/B] We shall start simplifying the board, we are now again in control of the center, and their king is more open then ours. 14...fxe4, seems the best. 14...h6 seems good too, he can't take it because we take it with the bishop and his both pawns in the middle are locked. I don't really like this because then we repeat their mistake: we open our king too much, too, same like they did. 14...e5 is also a a brilliant move, and let them do the first blood, so we can then recapture with some heavy wood and develop our heavy pieces (rook, knight bishop, depends if he capture and what). I am not decided yet. He does not seems to do so good if ht takes the pawn, in fact that would be a mistake, so I am also thinking that it can be good to let everything like it is, and develop some other piece. But which, and where? Qd7? Rf7? What other ppl here think? This game is interesting as neither player wants to capture, hehe, everybody is afraid to jump in the pool and only try the water with the biggest toe..., then say buuurrrrrrr.... P.S.: I go to Bangkok for the next days, job related trip. I won't access the forum.[/QUOTE] my guess is to stop us taking that piece, and block the lane, and give the dark square bishop almost no place to safely move. edit: oh it also limits the usefulness of or h pawn, h6 gets us gxh6, and even if we come back with the capture it hasn't gained us much, h5 gets us a possible en-passant with the same possible result Last fiddled with by science_man_88 on 2013-01-07 at 19:10

2013-01-07, 22:54	#3
Dubslow Basketry That Evening! "Bunslow the Bold" Jun 2011 40<A<43 -89<O<-88 3·29·83 Posts	I don't like pushing h, for reasons already mentioned. Our dark square bishop is fine where it is, it's playing defense more than offense. e5 is pretty interesting, and creates sort of the same "trap" as discussed a few moves ago if they respond with 15 exf5 Nxf5. If the game continued as (e.g.) 16 Bxb7 Nxe3 17 Qe1 Nxf1 18 Qxf1, then we would be forced to chase their white bishop to remain even in pieces, and chasing it could give them the strategic edge. ---- OTOH If they respond 15 fxe5, we could play either Bxe5 or dxe5 -- I don't like the former, I think the bishop should stay on defense -- but the latter is okay, and I don't think we lose any position on the exchange. Finally, since their white bishop is key to their defense the same as our dark is key, I think we should just straight up attack it with 14...fxe4 (but if they respond 15 Bxe4 Bxe4 16 dxe4, then our position is rather closed and they have the advantage I think... maybe we should do e5). PS Called it :razz: [QUOTE=Dubslow;323501]Personally though, I don't see exf5 as too big a possibility. g5 is more interesting.[/QUOTE] Last fiddled with by Dubslow on 2013-01-07 at 22:57

2013-01-09, 17:35	#4
LaurV Romulan Interpreter "name field" Jun 2011 Thailand 41×251 Posts	Back to home. I had a small look to 14...d5 move, I don't like it. If he push e5, then all the king's flank is blocked for both sides, and who wins the battle on the queen's side - wins the game. He can reach the queen side faster with the horse, and it can benefit from support from both bishops, during our black-square bishop is blocked on g7 and we can only support the fight on b and c columns with only one bishop. This may be white easy win. So, this move is not good. I also had a look to Nc6 - controls d4, e5 squares, can be moved to d4 later and regain the control we once had "behind enemy lines", but this time he can easily exchange it, without much benefit for us. I don't really like it. The "fight" should be between "[B]14...fxe4[/B]" and "[B]14...e5[/B]". These moves are both good (I think) and active. [QUOTE=Dubslow;323973]e5 is pretty interesting, and creates sort of the same "trap" as discussed a few moves ago if they respond with 15 exf5 Nxf5. If the game continued as (e.g.) 16 Bxb7 Nxe3 17 Qe1 Nxf1 18 Qxf1, then we would be forced to chase their white bishop to remain even in pieces, and chasing it could give them the strategic edge.[/QUOTE] What do you mean "chase their bishop"? This version will be very good for us, we go 18...Rb8 and we have a rook against a horse, or even better, we can take 18...exf4 and we have a pawn and a rook against a horse. Of course, he still can capture our rook, but look to that position after Bxa8, Qxa8, the black pawn is almost queen and white will have no chance there except give "a big wood" for it. I thing 16.Bxb7 is a terrible bad move for white, and I don't believe they are so weak to fall into this trap. [QUOTE=Dubslow;323973] OTOH If they respond 15 fxe5, we could play either Bxe5 or dxe5 -- I don't like the former, I think the bishop should stay on defense -- but the latter is okay, and I don't think we lose any position on the exchange.[/QUOTE] Yes, 15 fxe5 might be better response from them, indeed. After our Bxe5, they can safely play Bf4, and we might exchange some material (or not?) with advantage for white... (he easyed the defense of our king, with no additional cost for him, if we exchange the black-square bishops). [QUOTE=Dubslow;323973]Finally, since their white bishop is key to their defense the same as our dark is key, I think we should just straight up attack it with 14...fxe4 (but if they respond 15 Bxe4 Bxe4 16 dxe4, then our position is rather closed and they have the advantage I think... maybe we should do e5). [/QUOTE] 15 Bxe4 would be worse than 15 dxe4, for sure, because of 15...d5, bishop go somewhere, 16...Nf5 and he has to retreat black-square bishop too. His best threat to 14...fxe4 should be 15 dxe4, followed by our 15...d5. And we relaunch the battle for that two squares. Of course, no one can force them to take it. He can push e5 and we are blocked again on the king side. If I am thinking more to this, I like 14...e5 better... Grrrr.... This is freaking position. Last fiddled with by LaurV on 2013-01-09 at 17:59

2013-01-09, 18:20	#5
Dubslow Basketry That Evening! "Bunslow the Bold" Jun 2011 40<A<43 -89<O<-88 3×29×83 Posts	[QUOTE=LaurV;324171] Yes, 15 fxe5 might be better response from them, indeed. After our Bxe5, they can safely play Bf4, and we might exchange some material (or not?) with advantage for white... (he easyed the defense of our king, with no additional cost for him, if we exchange the black-square bishops).[/quote] What about dxe5? [QUOTE=LaurV;324171] 15 Bxe4 would be worse than 15 dxe4, for sure, because of 15...d5, bishop go somewhere, 16...Nf5 and he has to retreat black-square bishop too. His best threat to 14...fxe4 should be 15 dxe4, followed by our 15...d5. And we relaunch the battle for that two squares. Of course, no one can force them to take it. He can push e5 and we are blocked again on the king side. If I am thinking more to this, I like 14...e5 better...[/quote]Many possibilities... (16...Nf5 17. Bf2 {Qd8\|Qc8} 18. ... d4) [QUOTE=LaurV;324171] Grrrr.... This is freaking position.[/QUOTE] Quite. :smile: sm_88? Last fiddled with by Dubslow on 2013-01-09 at 18:26 Reason: ()

2013-01-09, 19:13	#6
LaurV Romulan Interpreter "name field" Jun 2011 Thailand 2833₁₆ Posts	[QUOTE=Dubslow;324178]What about dxe5?[/QUOTE] Not clear why 15...dxe5 should be better than 15...Bxe5 (I think is not, they are somehow equivalent, I prefer to develop the bishop), but I definitively like [B]14...e5[/B] more that [STRIKE]14...fxe4[/STRIKE]. Much more. Because on this variant is much easier for white to make mistakes :cool:. If they play it right, it may not be any difference. But first, there is the trap with f5, if they take it, and take the bishop too, they are doomed. Then, even if they take e5 instead, the pawn in g5 would be difficult to defend, forcing them either to keep the bishop blocked, or to move h4. This somehow would protect OUR king from "side attacks" on the h column, so we can concentrate on the center. If we capture 15.fxe5,Bxe5 and he moves anything else except the 16.Bf4, we still can capture 16...fxe4 (depending on his move) or not, so we still have this option. If he moves Bf4, we still can avoid the exchange and defend our bishop with Nc6, developing the knight in case he takes the bishop. If not, we can retreat the bishop back, and we have already moved the knight one step to defend the b and c columns (he still might get some advantage there, even if our knght is faster now, because of his two bishops that are dominating all the board, those bishops are somehow scary there, but we can't do too much for it right now). [B]14...e5[/B] is definitively the best move we can do, in my opinion. I go to sleep now, 2:12 AM here.

2013-01-09, 22:53	#7
science_man_88 "Forget I exist" Jul 2009 Dartmouth NS 8,461 Posts	[QUOTE=Dubslow;324178]What about dxe5? Many possibilities... (16...Nf5 17. Bf2 {Qd8\|Qc8} 18. ... d4) Quite. :smile: sm_88?[/QUOTE] just a bunch of hopeless moves as far as I see. e5 they can get us to block the diagonal or possibly do a bishop trade if we/they respond,to capture e4 appears to be a good way to lose pieces, the good part on d5 is that it's protected, h pawn seems hopeless, c4 overextends there may be back end move better than some of these,but then we can't gain ground. I may be wrong though. Last fiddled with by science_man_88 on 2013-01-09 at 22:56

2013-01-10, 01:49	#8
LaurV Romulan Interpreter "name field" Jun 2011 Thailand 10291₁₀ Posts	[QUOTE=science_man_88;324208]just a bunch of hopeless moves as far as I see[/QUOTE] Assuming you play white, what would you respond to e5?

2013-01-10, 13:05	#9
science_man_88 "Forget I exist" Jul 2009 Dartmouth NS 8,461 Posts	[QUOTE=LaurV;324217]Assuming you play white, what would you respond to e5?[/QUOTE] I could do fxe5 if Bxe5 comes into things Bf4 can be an attempted sacrifice to get that other bishop off the board ( it would be protected by the knight). Last fiddled with by science_man_88 on 2013-01-10 at 13:05

2013-01-10, 14:03	#10
LaurV Romulan Interpreter "name field" Jun 2011 Thailand 41·251 Posts	[QUOTE=science_man_88;324273]I could do fxe5 if Bxe5 comes into things Bf4 can be an attempted sacrifice to get that other bishop off the board ( it would be protected by the knight).[/QUOTE] Ok, assuming the game continues like you said, this I already analyzed before. 14...e5 15 fxe5 Bxe5 16 Bf4 Nc6 and let them take the bishop if they want, after which it would be difficult for them to scare out our knight from e5, beside of defending the pawn in g5, which can be taken with check! by our queen. The situation is not so dark for us, as the people are saying :razz: we still have hope to win this game.... Of course he might have better answers that this, but I can't find any right now.

2013-01-10, 14:24	#11
science_man_88 "Forget I exist" Jul 2009 Dartmouth NS 8461₁₀ Posts	[QUOTE=LaurV;324276]Ok, assuming the game continues like you said, this I already analyzed before. 14...e5 15 fxe5 Bxe5 16 Bf4 Nc6 and let them take the bishop if they want, after which it would be difficult for them to scare out our knight from e5, beside of defending the pawn in g5, which can be taken with check! by our queen. The situation is not so dark for us, as the people are saying :razz: we still have hope to win this game.... Of course he might have better answers that this, but I can't find any right now.[/QUOTE] there's still a lot of bad looking moves to me but I get your point.

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