Black's twelfth move - Page 2

Raman · 2012-12-24, 01:50

12...f5 13. exf5 Nxf5 14. Bxc5 bxc5 15. Bxa8 Ne3 16. Qe1 Nxf1 17. Qxf1 d5 18. Bc6 Qb6 19. Ba4 Qa6 [STRIKE]20. Bb3 c4 21. dxc4 dxc4 22.[/STRIKE] 20. b3 - moves

LaurV · 2012-12-24, 03:08

[QUOTE=Dubslow;322452]LaurV, the trap you refer to is 12 ...f5 13 exf5 Nxf5 14 Bxa8 Nxe3 15 Qsmthng Nxf1 ? (Or the variation referred to by Raman, in which we lose a pawn?)

And what if they do reply 12 ...f5 13 e5 d5 ? Then what? Hmm... (our knight is trapped, that's for sure.)[/QUOTE]

Yes, it is the same trap, with some variation. If they beat the pawn in f5, thinking to beat the rook in a8 after, then they are doomed, it is not only "a pawn less", we won the game.

The "difficult" side (for us), is when they [B][U]don't[/U][/B] beat the pawn. They still have other good moves to do. 13.e5 is indeed one such move, by which we give up all advantage we had, and start the game from scratch.

Even the version when they take the pawn, but after we Nxf5, they retreat the bishop, even with this we give back a part of our advantage.

But if they push 13.e5, is worse (for us). Of course, the game will not be lost for us if they move 13.e5, there is a lot much to play on both sides.

In a "face to face" game with a friend (and assuming I see the move) I would play 12...f5 for sure, waiting for him to take it, and if he takes it, and takes the rook too, I will make a lot of fun about his greed, for lo-o-o-ong time! :smile: This trap is easy to fall into, in a real face-to-face game, but not in a "remote" game when the players have more time and there are more eyes analyzing the board. In a face to face game, this really looks like a mistake, the white may think the adversary did a mistake and can take a pawn for free, because black needs to move the rook after 13.exf5. But the beauty is the black will sacrifice the rook, to take it back later, plus a lot of position advantage.

This is risky, but is beautiful. If some of you think that we must play safer, then 12...Bb7 is a better move. In fact I think we should vote if we play Bb7 or f5. One is "safe, we keep the advantage", the other is "beautiful, we risk the advantage". Like forex trading :razz:

Raman · 2012-12-24, 04:00

[QUOTE=LaurV;322456]Yes, it is the same trap, with some variation. If they beat the pawn in f5, thinking to beat the rook in a8 after, then they are doomed, it is not only "a pawn less", we won the game.
[/QUOTE]

Why? How do you declare it!

What will happen after the following moves
Moves - 12...f5 13. exf5 Nxf5 14. Bxc5 bxc5 15. Bxa8 Ne3 16. Qd2 Nxf1 17. Kxf1 d5 18. Bc6 Qb6 19. Ba4 Qa6 20. b3
Moves - 12...f5 13. exf5 Nxf5 14. Bxc5 bxc5 15. Bxa8 Ne3 16. Qe1 Nxf1 17. Qxf1 d5 18. Bc6 Qb6 19. Ba4 Qa6 20. b3

Dubslow · 2012-12-24, 05:28

Yes, I'm rather curious how it's a won game if they take the rook.

Especially since they will have much time to consider it, and even maybe are considering it now, I'm more inclined to take the safe route.

LaurV · 2012-12-24, 05:58

[QUOTE=Dubslow;322472]Yes, I'm rather curious how it's a won game if they take the rook.

Especially since they will have much time to consider it, and even maybe are considering it now, I'm more inclined to take the safe route.[/QUOTE]

Maybe you are better trader then me :D that is how I lost a lot of money in forex, taking futile risks... We may go for the safe version then.

Related to your (and Raman's) question in the first paragraph, give me some time to end this working day and return home and I may come with a complete analysis tonight. I "somehow saw" that, if they take the pawn in f5, we take pawn in f5 with the horse, they take the rook, "somehow" I saw that we win the game, they can't take the bishop out, we end up with a lot of material and positional advantage. But first, this has a big "[U][B]IF[/B][/U]", because they may play something else and we lose the advantage.

I can't tell you right now how we win if the big "IF" happens. I need the board. You may have Christmas holiday, but here the people are Buddhist and they don't give a sh!t, they still work during Christmas, so I am at the office (now is lunch break). I may take a free day (from the AV - annual vacation, still have few days left for this year, which if I don't take them, the company will pay them) tomorrow to have a bit of "Xmas" with my family, but generally we are working here during Christmas (and I don't mind, because as you know, I am not religious guy).

So, to avoid running out of time, let's play a safer move.

Dubslow · 2012-12-24, 06:01

[QUOTE=LaurV;322474]
So, to avoid running out of time, let's play a safer move.[/QUOTE]

Well, we have 4 days left, so I happily await your analysis.

LaurV · 2012-12-24, 12:22

[QUOTE=Raman;322466]Why? How do you declare it!

What will happen after the following moves
Moves - 12...f5 13. exf5 Nxf5 14. Bxc5 bxc5 15. Bxa8 Ne3 16. Qd2 Nxf1 17. Kxf1 d5 18. Bc6 Qb6 19. Ba4 Qa6 20. b3
Moves - 12...f5 13. exf5 Nxf5 14. Bxc5 bxc5 15. Bxa8 Ne3 16. Qe1 Nxf1 17. Qxf1 d5 18. Bc6 Qb6 19. Ba4 Qa6 20. b3[/QUOTE]
Hm... On these versions we are not so close to victory as I thought.... I mainly analyzed the version in which they are greedy to take the rook: 12...f5 13. exf5 Nxf5 14. Bxa8 Nxe3 15. Qd2 Nxf1 16. Kxf1 d5, on which they can't really take the bishop out without losing a lot of moves and we end with material advantage. But if they take the pawn in c5 first, before taking the rook, then we are back to square one... We have better position with our king, but they have a pawn and horse against the bishop...

Need the smiley with losing face... I guess That is why is called "vote chess" so another player can spot my "combinatorial" mistakes... :razz:

Raman · 2012-12-24, 12:55

[QUOTE=Raman;322466]
Moves - 12...f5 13. exf5 Nxf5 14. Bxc5 bxc5 15. Bxa8 Ne3 16. Qe1 Nxf1 17. Qxf1 d5 18. Bc6 Qb6 19. Ba4 Qa6 20. b3[/QUOTE]

By the same way, in this variation, we will be able to take back with the pawn again later on, onwards

Moves - 12...f5 13. exf5 Nxf5 14. Bxc5 bxc5 15. Bxa8 Ne3 16. Qe1 Nxf1 17. Qxf1 d5 18. Bc6 Qb6 19. Ba4 c4+ 20. Qf2 Qa6 21. b3 cxd3 22. cxd3 Qxd3

Moves - 12...f5 13. exf5 Nxf5 14. Bxc5 bxc5 15. Bxa8 Ne3 16. Qe1 Nxf1 17. Qxf1 d5 18. Bc6 Qb6 19. Ba4 c4+ 20. Kh1 Qa6 21. b3 cxd3 22. cxd3 Qxd3

[QUOTE=Raman;322466]
Moves - 12...f5 13. exf5 Nxf5 14. Bxc5 bxc5 15. Bxa8 Ne3 16. Qd2 Nxf1 17. Kxf1 d5 18. Bc6 Qb6 19. Ba4 Qa6 20. b3[/QUOTE]

In inside the other variation, 18. Qe3 move will be certainly a bad move for them, due to fact we can be able to play either within, 18...Qb6 move, from among within, in place, and then trap our own opponent's bishop at a8 square by 19...Bd7 move rather, instead

Dubslow · 2012-12-24, 18:20

[QUOTE=LaurV;322499]Hm... On these versions we are not so close to victory as I thought.... I mainly analyzed the version in which they are greedy to take the rook: 12...f5 13. exf5 Nxf5 14. Bxa8 Nxe3 15. Qd2 Nxf1 16. Kxf1 d5, on which they can't really take the bishop out without losing a lot of moves and we end with material advantage. But if they take the pawn in c5 first, before taking the rook, then we are back to square one... We have better position with our king, but they have a pawn and horse against the bishop...

Need the smiley with losing face... I guess That is why is called "vote chess" so another player can spot my "combinatorial" mistakes... :razz:[/QUOTE]

So it looks like Bb7 is definitely the way to go then.

Raman · 2012-12-25, 15:07

Yes, maybe please go ahead with 12...Bb7 move... :xmastree:

With 12...f5 move,
in this move sequence - (Line)
Moves - 12...f5 13. exf5 Nxf5 14. Bxc5 bxc5 15. Bxa8 Ne3 16. Qe1 Nxf1 17. Qxf1 d5 18. Bc6 Qb6 19. Ba4 c4+ 20. Qf2 Qa6 21. b3 cxd3 22. cxd3 Qxd3
Moves - 12...f5 13. exf5 Nxf5 14. Bxc5 bxc5 15. Bxa8 Ne3 16. Qe1 Nxf1 17. Qxf1 d5 18. Bc6 Qb6 19. Ba4 c4+ 20. Kh1 Qa6 21. b3 cxd3 22. cxd3 Qxd3

we seem to have decisive advantage right at the end,
but for the other variations, namely 16. Qd2, 12...f5 13. e5 d5 diversion route moves cases,
the game seem to balance towards each other,
but in fact White side has got with slight advantage factor, in this process.

Maybe 12...Bb7 move seems to be a better move off... :juggle:

Dubslow · 2012-12-25, 18:04

SM88 voted, as did LaurV. Nobody was really going to change their vote, so I went with it.

View Poll Results: Black's twelfth move
12...d5	0	0%
12...Nc6	0	0%
12...Qc7	0	0%
12...f5	1	16.67%
12...Ba6	0	0%
12...Qd7	0	0%
12...Bb7	2	33.33%
12...e5	1	16.67%
12...Rb8	0	0%
12...f6	2	33.33%
Multiple Choice Poll. Voters: 6. You may not vote on this poll

2012-12-24, 03:08	#13
LaurV Romulan Interpreter "name field" Jun 2011 Thailand 41×251 Posts	[QUOTE=Dubslow;322452]LaurV, the trap you refer to is 12 ...f5 13 exf5 Nxf5 14 Bxa8 Nxe3 15 Qsmthng Nxf1 ? (Or the variation referred to by Raman, in which we lose a pawn?) And what if they do reply 12 ...f5 13 e5 d5 ? Then what? Hmm... (our knight is trapped, that's for sure.)[/QUOTE] Yes, it is the same trap, with some variation. If they beat the pawn in f5, thinking to beat the rook in a8 after, then they are doomed, it is not only "a pawn less", we won the game. The "difficult" side (for us), is when they [B][U]don't[/U][/B] beat the pawn. They still have other good moves to do. 13.e5 is indeed one such move, by which we give up all advantage we had, and start the game from scratch. Even the version when they take the pawn, but after we Nxf5, they retreat the bishop, even with this we give back a part of our advantage. But if they push 13.e5, is worse (for us). Of course, the game will not be lost for us if they move 13.e5, there is a lot much to play on both sides. In a "face to face" game with a friend (and assuming I see the move) I would play 12...f5 for sure, waiting for him to take it, and if he takes it, and takes the rook too, I will make a lot of fun about his greed, for lo-o-o-ong time! :smile: This trap is easy to fall into, in a real face-to-face game, but not in a "remote" game when the players have more time and there are more eyes analyzing the board. In a face to face game, this really looks like a mistake, the white may think the adversary did a mistake and can take a pawn for free, because black needs to move the rook after 13.exf5. But the beauty is the black will sacrifice the rook, to take it back later, plus a lot of position advantage. This is risky, but is beautiful. If some of you think that we must play safer, then 12...Bb7 is a better move. In fact I think we should vote if we play Bb7 or f5. One is "safe, we keep the advantage", the other is "beautiful, we risk the advantage". Like forex trading :razz: Last fiddled with by LaurV on 2012-12-24 at 03:17

2012-12-24, 12:22	#18
LaurV Romulan Interpreter "name field" Jun 2011 Thailand 41×251 Posts	[QUOTE=Raman;322466]Why? How do you declare it! What will happen after the following moves Moves - 12...f5 13. exf5 Nxf5 14. Bxc5 bxc5 15. Bxa8 Ne3 16. Qd2 Nxf1 17. Kxf1 d5 18. Bc6 Qb6 19. Ba4 Qa6 20. b3 Moves - 12...f5 13. exf5 Nxf5 14. Bxc5 bxc5 15. Bxa8 Ne3 16. Qe1 Nxf1 17. Qxf1 d5 18. Bc6 Qb6 19. Ba4 Qa6 20. b3[/QUOTE] Hm... On these versions we are not so close to victory as I thought.... I mainly analyzed the version in which they are greedy to take the rook: 12...f5 13. exf5 Nxf5 14. Bxa8 Nxe3 15. Qd2 Nxf1 16. Kxf1 d5, on which they can't really take the bishop out without losing a lot of moves and we end with material advantage. But if they take the pawn in c5 first, before taking the rook, then we are back to square one... We have better position with our king, but they have a pawn and horse against the bishop... Need the smiley with losing face... I guess That is why is called "vote chess" so another player can spot my "combinatorial" mistakes... :razz: Last fiddled with by LaurV on 2012-12-24 at 12:26

2012-12-24, 12:55	#19
Raman Noodles "Mr. Tuch" Dec 2007 Chennai, India 3·419 Posts	[QUOTE=Raman;322466] Moves - 12...f5 13. exf5 Nxf5 14. Bxc5 bxc5 15. Bxa8 Ne3 16. Qe1 Nxf1 17. Qxf1 d5 18. Bc6 Qb6 19. Ba4 Qa6 20. b3[/QUOTE] By the same way, in this variation, we will be able to take back with the pawn again later on, onwards Moves - 12...f5 13. exf5 Nxf5 14. Bxc5 bxc5 15. Bxa8 Ne3 16. Qe1 Nxf1 17. Qxf1 d5 18. Bc6 Qb6 19. Ba4 c4+ 20. Qf2 Qa6 21. b3 cxd3 22. cxd3 Qxd3 Moves - 12...f5 13. exf5 Nxf5 14. Bxc5 bxc5 15. Bxa8 Ne3 16. Qe1 Nxf1 17. Qxf1 d5 18. Bc6 Qb6 19. Ba4 c4+ 20. Kh1 Qa6 21. b3 cxd3 22. cxd3 Qxd3 [QUOTE=Raman;322466] Moves - 12...f5 13. exf5 Nxf5 14. Bxc5 bxc5 15. Bxa8 Ne3 16. Qd2 Nxf1 17. Kxf1 d5 18. Bc6 Qb6 19. Ba4 Qa6 20. b3[/QUOTE] In inside the other variation, 18. Qe3 move will be certainly a bad move for them, due to fact we can be able to play either within, 18...Qb6 move, from among within, in place, and then trap our own opponent's bishop at a8 square by 19...Bd7 move rather, instead Last fiddled with by Raman on 2012-12-24 at 12:58

2012-12-25, 15:07	#21
Raman Noodles "Mr. Tuch" Dec 2007 Chennai, India 3·419 Posts	Yes, maybe please go ahead with 12...Bb7 move... :xmastree: With 12...f5 move, in this move sequence - (Line) Moves - 12...f5 13. exf5 Nxf5 14. Bxc5 bxc5 15. Bxa8 Ne3 16. Qe1 Nxf1 17. Qxf1 d5 18. Bc6 Qb6 19. Ba4 c4+ 20. Qf2 Qa6 21. b3 cxd3 22. cxd3 Qxd3 Moves - 12...f5 13. exf5 Nxf5 14. Bxc5 bxc5 15. Bxa8 Ne3 16. Qe1 Nxf1 17. Qxf1 d5 18. Bc6 Qb6 19. Ba4 c4+ 20. Kh1 Qa6 21. b3 cxd3 22. cxd3 Qxd3 we seem to have decisive advantage right at the end, but for the other variations, namely 16. Qd2, 12...f5 13. e5 d5 diversion route moves cases, the game seem to balance towards each other, but in fact White side has got with slight advantage factor, in this process. Maybe 12...Bb7 move seems to be a better move off... :juggle: Last fiddled with by Raman on 2012-12-25 at 15:18

2012-12-24, 01:50	#12
Raman Noodles "Mr. Tuch" Dec 2007 Chennai, India 2351₈ Posts	12...f5 13. exf5 Nxf5 14. Bxc5 bxc5 15. Bxa8 Ne3 16. Qe1 Nxf1 17. Qxf1 d5 18. Bc6 Qb6 19. Ba4 Qa6 [STRIKE]20. Bb3 c4 21. dxc4 dxc4 22.[/STRIKE] 20. b3 - moves

2012-12-24, 04:00	#14
Raman Noodles "Mr. Tuch" Dec 2007 Chennai, India 3·419 Posts	[QUOTE=LaurV;322456]Yes, it is the same trap, with some variation. If they beat the pawn in f5, thinking to beat the rook in a8 after, then they are doomed, it is not only "a pawn less", we won the game. [/QUOTE] Why? How do you declare it! What will happen after the following moves Moves - 12...f5 13. exf5 Nxf5 14. Bxc5 bxc5 15. Bxa8 Ne3 16. Qd2 Nxf1 17. Kxf1 d5 18. Bc6 Qb6 19. Ba4 Qa6 20. b3 Moves - 12...f5 13. exf5 Nxf5 14. Bxc5 bxc5 15. Bxa8 Ne3 16. Qe1 Nxf1 17. Qxf1 d5 18. Bc6 Qb6 19. Ba4 Qa6 20. b3

2012-12-24, 05:28	#15
Dubslow Basketry That Evening! "Bunslow the Bold" Jun 2011 40<A<43 -89<O<-88 3·29·83 Posts	Yes, I'm rather curious how it's a won game if they take the rook. Especially since they will have much time to consider it, and even maybe are considering it now, I'm more inclined to take the safe route.

2012-12-24, 05:58	#16
LaurV Romulan Interpreter "name field" Jun 2011 Thailand 41×251 Posts	[QUOTE=Dubslow;322472]Yes, I'm rather curious how it's a won game if they take the rook. Especially since they will have much time to consider it, and even maybe are considering it now, I'm more inclined to take the safe route.[/QUOTE] Maybe you are better trader then me :D that is how I lost a lot of money in forex, taking futile risks... We may go for the safe version then. Related to your (and Raman's) question in the first paragraph, give me some time to end this working day and return home and I may come with a complete analysis tonight. I "somehow saw" that, if they take the pawn in f5, we take pawn in f5 with the horse, they take the rook, "somehow" I saw that we win the game, they can't take the bishop out, we end up with a lot of material and positional advantage. But first, this has a big "[U][B]IF[/B][/U]", because they may play something else and we lose the advantage. I can't tell you right now how we win if the big "IF" happens. I need the board. You may have Christmas holiday, but here the people are Buddhist and they don't give a sh!t, they still work during Christmas, so I am at the office (now is lunch break). I may take a free day (from the AV - annual vacation, still have few days left for this year, which if I don't take them, the company will pay them) tomorrow to have a bit of "Xmas" with my family, but generally we are working here during Christmas (and I don't mind, because as you know, I am not religious guy). So, to avoid running out of time, let's play a safer move.

2012-12-24, 06:01	#17
Dubslow Basketry That Evening! "Bunslow the Bold" Jun 2011 40<A<43 -89<O<-88 3×29×83 Posts	[QUOTE=LaurV;322474] So, to avoid running out of time, let's play a safer move.[/QUOTE] Well, we have 4 days left, so I happily await your analysis.

2012-12-24, 18:20	#20
Dubslow Basketry That Evening! "Bunslow the Bold" Jun 2011 40<A<43 -89<O<-88 3×29×83 Posts	[QUOTE=LaurV;322499]Hm... On these versions we are not so close to victory as I thought.... I mainly analyzed the version in which they are greedy to take the rook: 12...f5 13. exf5 Nxf5 14. Bxa8 Nxe3 15. Qd2 Nxf1 16. Kxf1 d5, on which they can't really take the bishop out without losing a lot of moves and we end with material advantage. But if they take the pawn in c5 first, before taking the rook, then we are back to square one... We have better position with our king, but they have a pawn and horse against the bishop... Need the smiley with losing face... I guess That is why is called "vote chess" so another player can spot my "combinatorial" mistakes... :razz:[/QUOTE] So it looks like Bb7 is definitely the way to go then.

2012-12-25, 18:04	#22
Dubslow Basketry That Evening! "Bunslow the Bold" Jun 2011 40<A<43 -89<O<-88 3·29·83 Posts	SM88 voted, as did LaurV. Nobody was really going to change their vote, so I went with it.

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