Move 11

richs · 2012-12-13, 00:41

I started this thread for discussion.

Brian-E · 2012-12-13, 10:46

The two immediate thoughts which occurred to me when I saw their move were: (1) can we profit immediately and tactically from the open g2-a8 diagonal towards their rook?, (2) they have renounced for the moment any idea of playing ...Qa5 or of going for any sort of ambitious queenside expansion involving ...a6, ...b5, etc.

The answer to (1) seems to be 'no'. If we play e5, they can always answer ...d5 if they have nothing better than that.

Still, ...b6 seems just a containing move to me, a bit passive even. They want to develop their queen's bishop to b7 while waiting to see what we do, I guess.

Should we immediately carry on with the plan forumulated when we were discussing move 10 by playing 11.Ne2, intending c3? Or is there a better continuation at this moment?

Brian-E · 2012-12-13, 11:39

Just another thought...
Is 11.Nxd4 worth considering now (exploiting the open g2-a8 diagonal after all)? Unless they sacrifice the exchange in some way - and there are various ways - after 11...cxd4 12.e5, it seems they are obliged to answer 11...Bxd4 which allows us to exchange their strong dark squared bishop very easily if nothing else.

henryzz · 2012-12-13, 14:49

I don't think Nxd4 is an option. yes we get the rook but he get either our bishop or knight and once we take the rook he can do d5 blocking our bishop in.

I think continuing with our plan would be best.

Zeta-Flux · 2012-12-13, 15:45

I agree with Brian-E that their moves seems quite passive. I thought "not the best move" when they played it.

So, we have a few options:

1. Force their knight out of the center immediately. This takes two turns or so. (We may be able to work this to our advantage, by forcing a trade of pieces that we desire.)

2. Start our kingside advance.

3. Develop our queen.

4. Develop another piece to somewhere better. (Possibly the knight that they can currently take -- save it for the kingside advance).

Whatever we do, we can probably expect a bishop move to b7 eventually.

I'm not all that confident in performing a kingside advance. It isn't my usual cup of tea. But it would be fun to try.

On the other hand, I like the idea of moving their knight out of the center. But I'd like to do it so they can't just trade and remove one of our pieces (unless we don't need it).

henryzz · 2012-12-13, 16:53

With zeta's 4 I wouldn't mind Ng5. If he does either f6 or h6 he is blocking his bishop in and we can just move back. We do lose the tempo though.
If he doesn't take then we have moved the knight such that it can't be exchanged and it is in an advanced position.

What do people think of the position at:
11. Ng5 Bb7 12. Ne2 d5
Possibly followed by 13. c3 Nb5 with maybe 14. a4 Nd6
We can do e6 at any time in response to his d5.

Zeta-Flux · 2012-12-13, 17:53

I was looking at Ng5 myself. I kind of like it, but we wouldn't want to just move back to Nf3 in response to f6. The best option would be to first get our h pawn up to h4, and then try the knight maneuver, and end up with Nh3, behind the pawn storm.

Currently, I strongly favor either h3 (starting the pawn storm slowly) or Qd2 (developing our unused queen).

I don't really see any downsides to Qd2 at this point. It gives them time to move their white bishop to a useless square, by not convincing them to stay put (they may not be expecting the pawn storm, and their white bishop is currently in play in that regards).

richs · 2012-12-14, 02:51

I'm not a fan of Ng5. I'd prefer to continue with our 11. Ne2 plan. Then 11. ... Nxf3+ 12. Bxf3 Rb8 13. c3 Nc6 14. Qd2 I think that position is our best choice at the moment.

Brian-E · 2012-12-14, 10:40

@henryzz Yes, you're right, my sudden impulsive idea of 11.Nxd4? cxd4 12.e5 is a disaster because of 12....dxe3 13.Bxa8 d5 and we give up two minor pieces for the rook, not one, as you point out. I missed that.

Like others, I'm not a fan of 11.Ng5 either. At the moment the knight threatens nothing there and, as already pointed out, and Black probably just replies 11...Bb7 and drives the knight back in their own good time. I don't like retreating the knight to h3 after we play h4 followed by Ng5 either: h3 does not seem a promising square to me.

My main objection to 11.Qd2 is that if we are planning to play Ne2 (and c3) Black may reply ...Nxe2+ in which case we lose time with the queen recapturing on e2 having already moved to d2. So I prefer to continue the plan of Ne2 and c3 before developing the queen.

11.h3 starting the kingside pawns rolling immediately seems slightly premature to me. I prefer to sort out the problems in the centre (our ineffectively posted knight on c3, Black's outpost on d4) first and see in a few moves time when it may be clearer whether a central pawn advance or a kingside advance is the better option.

I am in complete agreement with what richs writes. And I currently favour the move 11.Ne2 intending c3.

henryzz · 2012-12-14, 11:43

I see what you mean about Ng5 not being very useful. What I had noticed was that him forcing it to move was going to be at a disadvantage to him. I forgot he could just leave it there.

Ne2 looks the best bet to me. However, I don't really want to exchange away our knight on f3 as that would stop e5.

richs · 2012-12-14, 15:07

I think it is inevitable that we will have an exchange of some type very soon, and the knight-knight exchange is even-up so I'd prefer that.

2012-12-13, 00:41	#1
richs "Rich" Aug 2002 Benicia, California 2×859 Posts	Move 11 I started this thread for discussion.

2012-12-13, 11:39	#3
Brian-E "Brian" Jul 2007 The Netherlands 2×11×149 Posts	Just another thought... Is 11.Nxd4 worth considering now (exploiting the open g2-a8 diagonal after all)? Unless they sacrifice the exchange in some way - and there are various ways - after 11...cxd4 12.e5, it seems they are obliged to answer 11...Bxd4 which allows us to exchange their strong dark squared bishop very easily if nothing else. Last fiddled with by Brian-E on 2012-12-13 at 11:40 Reason: spelling

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2012-12-13, 10:46	#2
Brian-E "Brian" Jul 2007 The Netherlands 2×11×149 Posts	The two immediate thoughts which occurred to me when I saw their move were: (1) can we profit immediately and tactically from the open g2-a8 diagonal towards their rook?, (2) they have renounced for the moment any idea of playing ...Qa5 or of going for any sort of ambitious queenside expansion involving ...a6, ...b5, etc. The answer to (1) seems to be 'no'. If we play e5, they can always answer ...d5 if they have nothing better than that. Still, ...b6 seems just a containing move to me, a bit passive even. They want to develop their queen's bishop to b7 while waiting to see what we do, I guess. Should we immediately carry on with the plan forumulated when we were discussing move 10 by playing 11.Ne2, intending c3? Or is there a better continuation at this moment?

2012-12-13, 14:49	#4
henryzz Just call me Henry "David" Sep 2007 Liverpool (GMT/BST) 13775₈ Posts	I don't think Nxd4 is an option. yes we get the rook but he get either our bishop or knight and once we take the rook he can do d5 blocking our bishop in. I think continuing with our plan would be best.

2012-12-13, 15:45	#5
Zeta-Flux May 2003 60B₁₆ Posts	I agree with Brian-E that their moves seems quite passive. I thought "not the best move" when they played it. So, we have a few options: 1. Force their knight out of the center immediately. This takes two turns or so. (We may be able to work this to our advantage, by forcing a trade of pieces that we desire.) 2. Start our kingside advance. 3. Develop our queen. 4. Develop another piece to somewhere better. (Possibly the knight that they can currently take -- save it for the kingside advance). Whatever we do, we can probably expect a bishop move to b7 eventually. I'm not all that confident in performing a kingside advance. It isn't my usual cup of tea. But it would be fun to try. On the other hand, I like the idea of moving their knight out of the center. But I'd like to do it so they can't just trade and remove one of our pieces (unless we don't need it).

2012-12-13, 16:53	#6
henryzz Just call me Henry "David" Sep 2007 Liverpool (GMT/BST) 3·23·89 Posts	With zeta's 4 I wouldn't mind Ng5. If he does either f6 or h6 he is blocking his bishop in and we can just move back. We do lose the tempo though. If he doesn't take then we have moved the knight such that it can't be exchanged and it is in an advanced position. What do people think of the position at: 11. Ng5 Bb7 12. Ne2 d5 Possibly followed by 13. c3 Nb5 with maybe 14. a4 Nd6 We can do e6 at any time in response to his d5.

2012-12-13, 17:53	#7
Zeta-Flux May 2003 7×13×17 Posts	I was looking at Ng5 myself. I kind of like it, but we wouldn't want to just move back to Nf3 in response to f6. The best option would be to first get our h pawn up to h4, and then try the knight maneuver, and end up with Nh3, behind the pawn storm. Currently, I strongly favor either h3 (starting the pawn storm slowly) or Qd2 (developing our unused queen). I don't really see any downsides to Qd2 at this point. It gives them time to move their white bishop to a useless square, by not convincing them to stay put (they may not be expecting the pawn storm, and their white bishop is currently in play in that regards).

2012-12-14, 02:51	#8
richs "Rich" Aug 2002 Benicia, California 1718₁₀ Posts	I'm not a fan of Ng5. I'd prefer to continue with our 11. Ne2 plan. Then 11. ... Nxf3+ 12. Bxf3 Rb8 13. c3 Nc6 14. Qd2 I think that position is our best choice at the moment.

2012-12-14, 10:40	#9
Brian-E "Brian" Jul 2007 The Netherlands 2·11·149 Posts	@henryzz Yes, you're right, my sudden impulsive idea of 11.Nxd4? cxd4 12.e5 is a disaster because of 12....dxe3 13.Bxa8 d5 and we give up two minor pieces for the rook, not one, as you point out. I missed that. Like others, I'm not a fan of 11.Ng5 either. At the moment the knight threatens nothing there and, as already pointed out, and Black probably just replies 11...Bb7 and drives the knight back in their own good time. I don't like retreating the knight to h3 after we play h4 followed by Ng5 either: h3 does not seem a promising square to me. My main objection to 11.Qd2 is that if we are planning to play Ne2 (and c3) Black may reply ...Nxe2+ in which case we lose time with the queen recapturing on e2 having already moved to d2. So I prefer to continue the plan of Ne2 and c3 before developing the queen. 11.h3 starting the kingside pawns rolling immediately seems slightly premature to me. I prefer to sort out the problems in the centre (our ineffectively posted knight on c3, Black's outpost on d4) first and see in a few moves time when it may be clearer whether a central pawn advance or a kingside advance is the better option. I am in complete agreement with what richs writes. And I currently favour the move 11.Ne2 intending c3.

2012-12-14, 11:43	#10
henryzz Just call me Henry "David" Sep 2007 Liverpool (GMT/BST) 13775₈ Posts	I see what you mean about Ng5 not being very useful. What I had noticed was that him forcing it to move was going to be at a disadvantage to him. I forgot he could just leave it there. Ne2 looks the best bet to me. However, I don't really want to exchange away our knight on f3 as that would stop e5.

2012-12-14, 15:07	#11
richs "Rich" Aug 2002 Benicia, California 11010110110₂ Posts	I think it is inevitable that we will have an exchange of some type very soon, and the knight-knight exchange is even-up so I'd prefer that.