Move 10 - Page 2

henryzz · 2012-12-04, 16:54

I am fine with Bf2. Zeta?

Zeta-Flux · 2012-12-04, 20:18

I think Bf2 is an okay move, but I'd like to know a bit more what the plan is. I imagine black responds Nc6. Do we like that position? If the answer is yes, then let's go for it.

[I don't think it is too early to develop our queen, now that nearly all of our other pieces are developed. I really like the idea of starting a pawn storm soon. I also like the idea of getting our bishop to h6, which we can't do if we back her up.]

Brian-E · 2012-12-04, 23:29

Yes, 10...Nec6 does look like a good response to 10.Bf2. I have to admit I'm now struggling to find a good follow-up plan for us which justifies our bishop move. And the straightforward 10.Qd2 is looking more natural to me after all. Sorry for my indecision. Richs and henryzz, can either of you suggest a good plan for us after 10.Bf2 Nec6?

richs · 2012-12-05, 02:38

Well, I played our current position against my brother who played black. He is the same level of chessplayer as me (middling...)

10. Bf2 Nec6
11. Nxd4 Nxd4
12. Ne2 Bd7
13. c3 Nxe2+
14. Qxe2 Qc7
15. Qg4 h6
16. h3 Rad8
17. Rac1 b6
18. Be3 Bb5
19. Rfd1 a6
20. b3 a5
21. d4 h5
22. Qg5 e5
23. a4 exf4
24. Bxf4 Ba6
25. e5 dxe5
26. dxe5 Rfe8
27. e6 Rxd1+
28. Rxd1 Qe7
29. exf7+ Qxf7
30. Bd5 Re6
31. g4 Be2
32. Bxe6 Qxe6
33. Rd6 Qxb3
34. Rxg6 Qxc3
35. Qd5+ Kh7
36. Qxh5+ Kg8
37. Qd5+ Kh8
38. Qd8+ Kh7
39. Qg5 Qe1+
40. Kg2 Bf1+
41. Kf3 Qe2+
42. Kg3 Qg2+
43. Kh4 Qxh3#

Obviously not the kind of result that we want as white. I want to play Qd2 against him and see where that goes.

Brian-E · 2012-12-05, 08:53

Your brother should join our team.:smile:

Brian-E · 2012-12-05, 09:06

In that line simply 12...Nxe2+ 13.Qxe2 Bxb2 seems to win a pawn for no compensation for us. Counterattacking their b7 pawn doesn't seem to regain it:
10.Bf2 Nec6 11.Nxd4 Nxd4 12.Ne2(?) Nxe2+ 13.Qxe2 Bxb2 14.Rab1 Bc3 15.e5 (if 15.Rb3 Qa5) d5 16.Rb3 Qa5 with clear, probably winning, advantage to Black. Clearly we have to do better than this.

Your strategy in that game of playing Ne2 followed by c3 looks a natural one for us, but I think we need to defend b2 first. Perhaps 10.Rab1 now is a good move. But I'm currently in favour of 10.Qd2 after everyone's remarks so far.

henryzz · 2012-12-05, 10:22

I would have thought the solution was to postpone Nxd4 further. Maybe after Rb1.

If we did something like 10. Rb1 Nec6 11. Ne3 we would be safe.
Rb1 doesn't look a terrible move for us right now.

If we are going to get the knight on d4 by moving the c3 knight then we don't need to worry about a fork from the pawn meaning Bf2 is unnecessary right now. Moving the bishop to d2 might be a possibility(assuming we haven't already moved the queen there). That bishop looks like it would be a bit frozen out with pawns on c5 and d4(and b6 1 move away) so exchanging might be an option.

[COLOR="LemonChiffon"]Disclaimer: This is beginning thoughts/a beginning brainstorm on something completely different so there is bound to be dodgy analysis.[/COLOR]

Brian-E · 2012-12-05, 11:41

Rather than intending to exchange on d4 (which was what richs played against his brother), my inclination in going for the plan Rb1, Ne2 and c3 would be to aim to drive Black's knight off d4 (either back to c6 or exchanging one of our knights). That way we are blunting the effect of Black's g7 bishop on the long diagonal and possibly aiming at playing d3-d4 later.

henryzz · 2012-12-05, 12:12

[QUOTE=Brian-E;320571]Rather than intending to exchange on d4 (which was what richs played against his brother), my inclination in going for the plan Rb1, Ne2 and c3 would be to aim to drive Black's knight off d4 (either back to c6 or exchanging one of our knights). That way we are blunting the effect of Black's g7 bishop on the long diagonal and possibly aiming at playing d3-d4 later.[/QUOTE]

Exactly what I was thinking. We can't guarantee that as soon as we do Ne2 he wont do Nxe2 though. That probably doesn't matter though.

Brian-E · 2012-12-05, 12:36

[QUOTE=henryzz;320577]Exactly what I was thinking. We can't guarantee that as soon as we do Ne2 he wont do Nxe2 though. That probably doesn't matter though.[/QUOTE]
Should indeed not matter, but it's also an argument for not playing 10.Qd2 because in that line we have lost a move with the queen when it recaptures on e2.

Do people think that 10.Rb1 (intending Ne2 and c3) is seriously worth considering?

richs · 2012-12-05, 15:03

I will play my brother again today and try that line. He works at a powerplant and, like Homer Simpson, he has a lot of time on his hands.... :smile:

2012-12-04, 20:18	#13
Zeta-Flux May 2003 7·13·17 Posts	I think Bf2 is an okay move, but I'd like to know a bit more what the plan is. I imagine black responds Nc6. Do we like that position? If the answer is yes, then let's go for it. [I don't think it is too early to develop our queen, now that nearly all of our other pieces are developed. I really like the idea of starting a pawn storm soon. I also like the idea of getting our bishop to h6, which we can't do if we back her up.] Last fiddled with by Zeta-Flux on 2012-12-04 at 20:19

2012-12-05, 09:06	#17
Brian-E "Brian" Jul 2007 The Netherlands 2·11·149 Posts	In that line simply 12...Nxe2+ 13.Qxe2 Bxb2 seems to win a pawn for no compensation for us. Counterattacking their b7 pawn doesn't seem to regain it: 10.Bf2 Nec6 11.Nxd4 Nxd4 12.Ne2(?) Nxe2+ 13.Qxe2 Bxb2 14.Rab1 Bc3 15.e5 (if 15.Rb3 Qa5) d5 16.Rb3 Qa5 with clear, probably winning, advantage to Black. Clearly we have to do better than this. Your strategy in that game of playing Ne2 followed by c3 looks a natural one for us, but I think we need to defend b2 first. Perhaps 10.Rab1 now is a good move. But I'm currently in favour of 10.Qd2 after everyone's remarks so far. Last fiddled with by Brian-E on 2012-12-05 at 09:09 Reason: move order correction

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2012-12-04, 16:54	#12
henryzz Just call me Henry "David" Sep 2007 Liverpool (GMT/BST) 1011111111101₂ Posts	I am fine with Bf2. Zeta?

2012-12-04, 23:29	#14
Brian-E "Brian" Jul 2007 The Netherlands 6316₈ Posts	Yes, 10...Nec6 does look like a good response to 10.Bf2. I have to admit I'm now struggling to find a good follow-up plan for us which justifies our bishop move. And the straightforward 10.Qd2 is looking more natural to me after all. Sorry for my indecision. Richs and henryzz, can either of you suggest a good plan for us after 10.Bf2 Nec6?

2012-12-05, 02:38	#15
richs "Rich" Aug 2002 Benicia, California 2×859 Posts	Well, I played our current position against my brother who played black. He is the same level of chessplayer as me (middling...) 10. Bf2 Nec6 11. Nxd4 Nxd4 12. Ne2 Bd7 13. c3 Nxe2+ 14. Qxe2 Qc7 15. Qg4 h6 16. h3 Rad8 17. Rac1 b6 18. Be3 Bb5 19. Rfd1 a6 20. b3 a5 21. d4 h5 22. Qg5 e5 23. a4 exf4 24. Bxf4 Ba6 25. e5 dxe5 26. dxe5 Rfe8 27. e6 Rxd1+ 28. Rxd1 Qe7 29. exf7+ Qxf7 30. Bd5 Re6 31. g4 Be2 32. Bxe6 Qxe6 33. Rd6 Qxb3 34. Rxg6 Qxc3 35. Qd5+ Kh7 36. Qxh5+ Kg8 37. Qd5+ Kh8 38. Qd8+ Kh7 39. Qg5 Qe1+ 40. Kg2 Bf1+ 41. Kf3 Qe2+ 42. Kg3 Qg2+ 43. Kh4 Qxh3# Obviously not the kind of result that we want as white. I want to play Qd2 against him and see where that goes.

2012-12-05, 08:53	#16
Brian-E "Brian" Jul 2007 The Netherlands 2×11×149 Posts	Your brother should join our team.:smile:

2012-12-05, 10:22	#18
henryzz Just call me Henry "David" Sep 2007 Liverpool (GMT/BST) 3×23×89 Posts	I would have thought the solution was to postpone Nxd4 further. Maybe after Rb1. If we did something like 10. Rb1 Nec6 11. Ne3 we would be safe. Rb1 doesn't look a terrible move for us right now. If we are going to get the knight on d4 by moving the c3 knight then we don't need to worry about a fork from the pawn meaning Bf2 is unnecessary right now. Moving the bishop to d2 might be a possibility(assuming we haven't already moved the queen there). That bishop looks like it would be a bit frozen out with pawns on c5 and d4(and b6 1 move away) so exchanging might be an option. [COLOR="LemonChiffon"]Disclaimer: This is beginning thoughts/a beginning brainstorm on something completely different so there is bound to be dodgy analysis.[/COLOR]

2012-12-05, 11:41	#19
Brian-E "Brian" Jul 2007 The Netherlands 2×11×149 Posts	Rather than intending to exchange on d4 (which was what richs played against his brother), my inclination in going for the plan Rb1, Ne2 and c3 would be to aim to drive Black's knight off d4 (either back to c6 or exchanging one of our knights). That way we are blunting the effect of Black's g7 bishop on the long diagonal and possibly aiming at playing d3-d4 later.

2012-12-05, 12:12	#20
henryzz Just call me Henry "David" Sep 2007 Liverpool (GMT/BST) 3×23×89 Posts	[QUOTE=Brian-E;320571]Rather than intending to exchange on d4 (which was what richs played against his brother), my inclination in going for the plan Rb1, Ne2 and c3 would be to aim to drive Black's knight off d4 (either back to c6 or exchanging one of our knights). That way we are blunting the effect of Black's g7 bishop on the long diagonal and possibly aiming at playing d3-d4 later.[/QUOTE] Exactly what I was thinking. We can't guarantee that as soon as we do Ne2 he wont do Nxe2 though. That probably doesn't matter though.

2012-12-05, 12:36	#21
Brian-E "Brian" Jul 2007 The Netherlands 2·11·149 Posts	[QUOTE=henryzz;320577]Exactly what I was thinking. We can't guarantee that as soon as we do Ne2 he wont do Nxe2 though. That probably doesn't matter though.[/QUOTE] Should indeed not matter, but it's also an argument for not playing 10.Qd2 because in that line we have lost a move with the queen when it recaptures on e2. Do people think that 10.Rb1 (intending Ne2 and c3) is seriously worth considering?

2012-12-05, 15:03	#22
richs "Rich" Aug 2002 Benicia, California 2×859 Posts	I will play my brother again today and try that line. He works at a powerplant and, like Homer Simpson, he has a lot of time on his hands.... :smile: