Move 10

henryzz · 2012-12-02, 16:50

They have done O-O. What shall we do?

I quite like e5. Zeta posted in the last move's thread:
[QUOTE=Zeta-Flux;319883]I kind of like 9. O-O because it makes a move we eventually need to make anyway, defends the knight from another angle if they do exchange (although I'd probably take with the queen), and gets things rolling for our eventual king-side pawn storm. I think Qd2 is good too. If they do trade knights, if prevents them from exchanging the bishop for the knight on c3, and thus opening up the b-file.[/quote]
Unfortunately we lose a pawn. I think we gain quite a bit positionally though.
I think the most likely line is
10. e5 dxe5 11. fxe5 Nxf3 12. Bxf3
At this point black can take the pawn on e5 but we could then take the pawn on c5.
More likely I think he will do Qb6 or Qc7.
I have thought of a few routes from here:
Need to find a way of avoiding e5 on this one.
Qc7 13. Ne4 Bxe5 14. c3 Bd6 15. Nxd6 Qxd6 16. Bf4
Not sure we can take this attack any further.
Qc7 13. Ne4 Bxe5 14. c3 Bd6 15. Bh6 Rd8 16. Nf6+ Kh8
Probably kills Qb6 as a move as we finally get the c pawn.
Qb6 13. Ne4 Bxe5 14. c3 Bd6 15. b4 Qa6 16. a4

On a lot of these routes he ends up with very little developed pieces and we are in a much better position.
There are of course other possible lines like 10. e5 Nf5

Can anyone point out any suggestions for improvement on any of these lines? Any comments?

Qd2 looks like a possibly helpful move as well. We could potentially do this before e5.

Brian-E · 2012-12-02, 17:12

Yes, 10.e5 is interesting, and it may well be good for us I think if Black seriously tries to keep hold of the extra pawn. The question is whether we can get anything if Black merely allows the exchange of our e-pawn for their c-pawn. In all the lines you give, in which you obviously mean 14...Bd6 where you have written Bd4, I think 14...Bg7 is a much better move for Black, then after 15.Nxc5, Nc6 and I'm not sure what we have. Black should be able to follow up ...e5 (whether or not we play d4) and we don't seem to have any initiative.

But let's keep looking at henryzz' idea of 10.e5. It's very nice if we can make it work.

Brian-E · 2012-12-02, 20:37

Should we decide that a less forcing move than 10.e5 is in order, then in addition to henryzz' suggestion of 10.Qd2 I would also suggest the waiting move 10.Kh1. Removing the king both from the dark diagonal and from where the black knight on d4 would give check if it exchanges on f3 can remove some of Black's possibilities of tactical tricks, and we might want to see what Black does on their next move before doing anything more committal. It might be a better waiting move than 10.Qd2 which gives up the option of a recapture on f3 with our queen.

Zeta-Flux · 2012-12-03, 16:50

I have reservations about e5. I'll talk more about it when I get back from teaching class in two hours.

henryzz · 2012-12-03, 17:27

[QUOTE=Zeta-Flux;320341]I have reservations about e5. I'll talk more about it when I get back from teaching class in two hours.[/QUOTE]

Your not the only one. It would be nice if it worked. I think it relatively likely that there are unhelpful ways out for black no matter what we do.

Zeta-Flux · 2012-12-03, 20:00

My opening book has two options at this point: Qd2 or Bf2. The point of Qd2, I think, it to attack the h6 square, develop a piece, and begin the kingside attack.

The point of Bf2, I think, it to threaten to trade knights, possible forcing black to double up his pawns.

I favor the straightforward Qd2.

Here is one reason why I think e5 is troublesome.

10. e5 Nef5!

If we are foolish, and play 11. Bxd3? they respond cxd3, and we have to move our knight and their knight now has a new home at e3! (Yikes)

If we play a move that defends our bishop with the queen, they just trade their knight (from the f-file) and threaten a fork. If we back up our bishop, we are now on the run, and they have the momentum to deal with the e-pawn (probably by just trading immediately, hoping we would fall for the bait with the c-pawn).

So, I'm currently favoring Qd2.

henryzz · 2012-12-03, 20:39

I am thinking Qd2 looks like a safer option.

Brian-E · 2012-12-03, 21:38

One point in favour of 10.Bf2 suggested by Zeta-Flux' opening book is that it might make our move e5 shortly possible after all by taking the poison out of the reply ...Nef5. By the way, I actually think Bf2 is a good reply in the sequence 10.e5 Nef5 11.Bf2, but even so I don't really like 10.e5 because it doesn't seem to lead to anything clear and I think we can get more out of the position by preparing such an advance first with more developing moves.

What are our main candidate moves at the moment?
10.Qd2
10.Bf2
10.Kh1

Any others? And any specific objections to any of these so that we can eliminate them?

henryzz · 2012-12-03, 23:22

[QUOTE=Brian-E;320385]
What are our main candidate moves at the moment?
10.Qd2
10.Bf2
10.Kh1
[/QUOTE]

All three look good. I think I would prefer Qd2 first but I have no strong preference.

richs · 2012-12-04, 01:23

I prefer 10. Bf2. I don't like moving my Queen too early and there's no need to move the King at this point.

With 10. Bf2, I think they will either exchange Knights Nxf3+, move up their other Knight Nec6, or perhaps their Bishop Bd7.

Thoughts?

Brian-E · 2012-12-04, 15:34

I'm also in favour of 10.Bf2 the most at the moment. And I agree with richs that there's no need for Kh1 right now, so I'll cancel my earlier suggestion of that move unless anyone else has reason to advocate it.

My main objection to 10.Qd2 is that it's not quite clear to me (yet) that this is where we should post the queen. Certainly if we go for the pawn move e4-e5 in the near future, rather than f4-f5, then the c1-h6 diagonal may be blocked by our pawn chain and Black's strong point on f5.

An alternative setup to the Qd2/Be3 battery is Qe1/Bf2, provided we defend c2 first. That way, if we play e4-e5 and Black responds Ne7-f5, we will have h4 under control so that we can safely play g3-g4 driving the knight back and rolling the kingside pawns.

2012-12-02, 16:50	#1
henryzz Just call me Henry "David" Sep 2007 Liverpool (GMT/BST) 3·23·89 Posts	Move 10 They have done O-O. What shall we do? I quite like e5. Zeta posted in the last move's thread: [QUOTE=Zeta-Flux;319883]I kind of like 9. O-O because it makes a move we eventually need to make anyway, defends the knight from another angle if they do exchange (although I'd probably take with the queen), and gets things rolling for our eventual king-side pawn storm. I think Qd2 is good too. If they do trade knights, if prevents them from exchanging the bishop for the knight on c3, and thus opening up the b-file.[/quote] Unfortunately we lose a pawn. I think we gain quite a bit positionally though. I think the most likely line is 10. e5 dxe5 11. fxe5 Nxf3 12. Bxf3 At this point black can take the pawn on e5 but we could then take the pawn on c5. More likely I think he will do Qb6 or Qc7. I have thought of a few routes from here: Need to find a way of avoiding e5 on this one. Qc7 13. Ne4 Bxe5 14. c3 Bd6 15. Nxd6 Qxd6 16. Bf4 Not sure we can take this attack any further. Qc7 13. Ne4 Bxe5 14. c3 Bd6 15. Bh6 Rd8 16. Nf6+ Kh8 Probably kills Qb6 as a move as we finally get the c pawn. Qb6 13. Ne4 Bxe5 14. c3 Bd6 15. b4 Qa6 16. a4 On a lot of these routes he ends up with very little developed pieces and we are in a much better position. There are of course other possible lines like 10. e5 Nf5 Can anyone point out any suggestions for improvement on any of these lines? Any comments? Qd2 looks like a possibly helpful move as well. We could potentially do this before e5. Last fiddled with by henryzz on 2012-12-02 at 22:58 Reason: Correct Bg4 to be Bg6

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2012-12-02, 17:12	#2
Brian-E "Brian" Jul 2007 The Netherlands 2×11×149 Posts	Yes, 10.e5 is interesting, and it may well be good for us I think if Black seriously tries to keep hold of the extra pawn. The question is whether we can get anything if Black merely allows the exchange of our e-pawn for their c-pawn. In all the lines you give, in which you obviously mean 14...Bd6 where you have written Bd4, I think 14...Bg7 is a much better move for Black, then after 15.Nxc5, Nc6 and I'm not sure what we have. Black should be able to follow up ...e5 (whether or not we play d4) and we don't seem to have any initiative. But let's keep looking at henryzz' idea of 10.e5. It's very nice if we can make it work.

2012-12-02, 20:37	#3
Brian-E "Brian" Jul 2007 The Netherlands 2·11·149 Posts	Should we decide that a less forcing move than 10.e5 is in order, then in addition to henryzz' suggestion of 10.Qd2 I would also suggest the waiting move 10.Kh1. Removing the king both from the dark diagonal and from where the black knight on d4 would give check if it exchanges on f3 can remove some of Black's possibilities of tactical tricks, and we might want to see what Black does on their next move before doing anything more committal. It might be a better waiting move than 10.Qd2 which gives up the option of a recapture on f3 with our queen.

2012-12-03, 16:50	#4
Zeta-Flux May 2003 7·13·17 Posts	I have reservations about e5. I'll talk more about it when I get back from teaching class in two hours.

2012-12-03, 17:27	#5
henryzz Just call me Henry "David" Sep 2007 Liverpool (GMT/BST) 3·23·89 Posts	[QUOTE=Zeta-Flux;320341]I have reservations about e5. I'll talk more about it when I get back from teaching class in two hours.[/QUOTE] Your not the only one. It would be nice if it worked. I think it relatively likely that there are unhelpful ways out for black no matter what we do.

2012-12-03, 20:00	#6
Zeta-Flux May 2003 7×13×17 Posts	My opening book has two options at this point: Qd2 or Bf2. The point of Qd2, I think, it to attack the h6 square, develop a piece, and begin the kingside attack. The point of Bf2, I think, it to threaten to trade knights, possible forcing black to double up his pawns. I favor the straightforward Qd2. Here is one reason why I think e5 is troublesome. 10. e5 Nef5! If we are foolish, and play 11. Bxd3? they respond cxd3, and we have to move our knight and their knight now has a new home at e3! (Yikes) If we play a move that defends our bishop with the queen, they just trade their knight (from the f-file) and threaten a fork. If we back up our bishop, we are now on the run, and they have the momentum to deal with the e-pawn (probably by just trading immediately, hoping we would fall for the bait with the c-pawn). So, I'm currently favoring Qd2.

2012-12-03, 20:39	#7
henryzz Just call me Henry "David" Sep 2007 Liverpool (GMT/BST) 3×23×89 Posts	I am thinking Qd2 looks like a safer option.

2012-12-03, 21:38	#8
Brian-E "Brian" Jul 2007 The Netherlands 6316₈ Posts	One point in favour of 10.Bf2 suggested by Zeta-Flux' opening book is that it might make our move e5 shortly possible after all by taking the poison out of the reply ...Nef5. By the way, I actually think Bf2 is a good reply in the sequence 10.e5 Nef5 11.Bf2, but even so I don't really like 10.e5 because it doesn't seem to lead to anything clear and I think we can get more out of the position by preparing such an advance first with more developing moves. What are our main candidate moves at the moment? 10.Qd2 10.Bf2 10.Kh1 Any others? And any specific objections to any of these so that we can eliminate them?

2012-12-03, 23:22	#9
henryzz Just call me Henry "David" Sep 2007 Liverpool (GMT/BST) 3·23·89 Posts	[QUOTE=Brian-E;320385] What are our main candidate moves at the moment? 10.Qd2 10.Bf2 10.Kh1 [/QUOTE] All three look good. I think I would prefer Qd2 first but I have no strong preference.

2012-12-04, 01:23	#10
richs "Rich" Aug 2002 Benicia, California 2×859 Posts	I prefer 10. Bf2. I don't like moving my Queen too early and there's no need to move the King at this point. With 10. Bf2, I think they will either exchange Knights Nxf3+, move up their other Knight Nec6, or perhaps their Bishop Bd7. Thoughts?

2012-12-04, 15:34	#11
Brian-E "Brian" Jul 2007 The Netherlands 2×11×149 Posts	I'm also in favour of 10.Bf2 the most at the moment. And I agree with richs that there's no need for Kh1 right now, so I'll cancel my earlier suggestion of that move unless anyone else has reason to advocate it. My main objection to 10.Qd2 is that it's not quite clear to me (yet) that this is where we should post the queen. Certainly if we go for the pawn move e4-e5 in the near future, rather than f4-f5, then the c1-h6 diagonal may be blocked by our pawn chain and Black's strong point on f5. An alternative setup to the Qd2/Be3 battery is Qe1/Bf2, provided we defend c2 first. That way, if we play e4-e5 and Black responds Ne7-f5, we will have h4 under control so that we can safely play g3-g4 driving the knight back and rolling the kingside pawns.