A theism, a theism, my kingdom for a theism - Page 34

davar55 · 2013-05-14, 20:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by chalsall

Such as? Exactly defined, if you please?

Let's try this from another angle (physics).

Can absolute zero be achieved?

Answering a question with a question is somewhat questionable.

WIthout knowing in advance what you're getting at, simple
answers of yes/no seem pointless. But you are getting at
something new, are you not?

If it's simply that AZ is a non-achievable limit, that simply
doesn't transfer to the search for god issue.

chalsall · 2013-05-14, 20:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by davar55

Your definition of intellectual dishonesty would then apply to theists too, since they can't prove their god exists...

Didn't I already say that above? Didn't you object to it above?

Quote:

Originally Posted by davar55

...and to agnostics who believe without proof that it can't be proven either way. Perhaps it can.

Sigh...

Given a fair coin flipped (within a gravitation field), who can say how it will land?

chalsall · 2013-05-14, 20:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by davar55

If it's simply that AZ is a non-achievable limit, that simply
doesn't transfer to the search for god issue.

Actually, it very much does.

davar55 · 2013-05-14, 20:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by chalsall

Actually, it very much does.

It's your analogy. Sounds merely like Zeno's epistemological
paradox. But would you care to explain the comparison?

I would suggest that knowledge is not always approximate.

chalsall · 2013-05-14, 20:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by davar55

But would you care to explain the comparison?

If one cannot reach true absolute zero, then things are happening. All the time.

Virtual particles (and their antiparticles) are popping in and out of existence. As are 747s, and whales (sorry -- that was a reference to Douglas Adams).

Are you familiar with Hawking radiation?

chappy · 2013-05-14, 21:30

What Deity-worth-believing-in^tm leaves so little evidence that a virtue must be made of what is clearly a vice--blind faith?

I'm open to the possibility and, in fact, I believed in such a being for more than half my life. I just don't see it now. Also, I don't see anything I've ever done or not done as deserving of a minute of torture, let alone an eternity of it. (I realize this is an argument against only one conception of Deity.)

davar55 · 2013-05-15, 20:18

I feel like you have something important to say with all these physics
and math references that involve things at their limits - if so, then
go ahead. I'm wondering how do you explain the view of general agnosticism (my term)?

chalsall · 2013-05-16, 00:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by davar55

I feel like you have something important to say with all these physics and math references that involve things at their limits - if so, then go ahead. I'm wondering how do you explain the view of general agnosticism (my term)?

I'm going to be presumptuousness, and assume you are taking to me.

Very interesting things tend to happen at the extremes. This is where new discoveries are often found.

"The most exciting phrase to hear in science, the one that heralds the most discoveries, is not 'Eureka!' (I found it!) but 'That's funny..." -- Isaac Asmov

"God does not play dice with the universe." -- Albert Einstein

"Einstein, stop telling God what to do." -- Niels Bohr

cheesehead · 2013-05-16, 06:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by davar55

I would challenge this axiom.

If you search high and low for Santa Claus, in every nook and cranny,
and can't find him, sure he MIGHT be hiding in some town you passed,
or on the moon, but your search does provide some tangible evidence
that Virginia was mis-led.

IOW an unsuccessful search is meaningful too.

Care to comment on what followed that first line in my actual post where you show only an ellipsis?

Does "But 99.99999% is good enough for most everyday decisions" ring a bell?

davar55 · 2013-05-16, 13:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by cheesehead

Care to comment on what followed that first line in my actual post where you show only an ellipsis?

Does "But 99.99999% is good enough for most everyday decisions" ring a bell?

Oh, I agreed with the rest of that post, I was just questioning what
you seemed to regard as a truism that really isn't.

Is 99.9999% certainty of one's belief, or rather 0.0001% uncertainty,
enough to cause one to call themselves agnostic on an issue? I
would say find that last bit of convincement and accept the more
extreme label. Then let others try to prove you wrong.

davar55 · 2013-05-16, 14:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by chalsall

I'm going to be presumptuousness, and assume you are taking to me.
...
Very interesting things tend to happen at the extremes. This is where new discoveries are often found.

Totally agree, in science and math. So you should also look
at the extremes in philosophy too. And atheism is an extreme.
Agnosticism is sort of middle-of-the-road.

2013-05-14, 21:30	#369
chappy "Jeff" Feb 2012 St. Louis, Missouri, USA 13·89 Posts	What Deity-worth-believing-in^tm leaves so little evidence that a virtue must be made of what is clearly a vice--blind faith? I'm open to the possibility and, in fact, I believed in such a being for more than half my life. I just don't see it now. Also, I don't see anything I've ever done or not done as deserving of a minute of torture, let alone an eternity of it. (I realize this is an argument against only one conception of Deity.)

2013-05-15, 20:18	#370
davar55 May 2004 New York City 5×7×11² Posts	I feel like you have something important to say with all these physics and math references that involve things at their limits - if so, then go ahead. I'm wondering how do you explain the view of general agnosticism (my term)?