A theism, a theism, my kingdom for a theism - Page 31

chalsall · 2013-05-08, 20:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by davar55

Well, for example, instead of asking "Does a god exist?", preface that question with several properties that define such a being, such as
omniscience or omnipotence, so that when the questioner refers to
a god, he/she has already included contradictions in its definition.
That leads to a negative answer.

Listen... I have spent a lot of time thinking about this. 40 or so of my 46 years...

It doesn't make sense, to me, that an omniscience or omnipotence God exists.

It seems, to me, that lesser minds like to "trust" others rather than "think" for themselves.

Of course, they may be correct and I'm wrong.

I don't think that's the case, but anything is possible....

jasong · 2013-05-08, 22:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by chalsall

Listen... I have spent a lot of time thinking about this. 40 or so of my 46 years...

It doesn't make sense, to me, that an omniscience or omnipotence God exists.

It seems, to me, that lesser minds like to "trust" others rather than "think" for themselves.

Of course, they may be correct and I'm wrong.

I don't think that's the case, but anything is possible....

Let me put it to you this way. Think of all the knowledge that exists on the planet, how many thousands of years of study it would take to learn all that stuff. Imagine that the proof of the existence of God is hidden somewhere in there. Now imagine that there are beings that know the truth and absolutely do not want you to know it.

So the demons don't want you to know the truth, and the angels aren't tasked to help you know the truth because God values faith and trusting in Him.

Proof of the existence of God does exist, but it's hidden in so much stuff that we'll never find it by casting about. Once I was sitting in church and the preacher asked everyone who came to Christ totally on their own to raise their hands. 3 deluded people raised their hands. I never really talked to them, but the truth is we'd have no chance of discovering God if it weren't for Christ and other Christians. Salvation is pretty simple a concept, but every time someone accepts it for themselves, it's a major miracle.

If you ever realize the truth, it's going to hit like a bolt of lightning. The greatest day of my life was also the most unpleasant, I was miserable when I realized how much I'd screwed up. I still have problems with depression because of the memories of how much I'd hurt people. I air my dirty laundry on these forums because I want people to know that God loves even the most degenerate people out there.

Jesus is the beginnings of an answer to any question that truly matters.

chalsall · 2013-05-08, 23:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by jasong

Proof of the existence of God does exist, but it's hidden in so much stuff that we'll never find it by casting about.

Prove it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by jasong

Jesus is the beginnings of an answer to any question that truly matters.

An unsupported claim by a lesser mind (IMHO).

jasong · 2013-05-09, 03:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by chalsall

An unsupported claim by a lesser mind (IMHO).

Take out the H in IMHO. Only idiots refer to THEMSELVES as humble.

As for the "prove it," the proof is the Holy Spirit. Those who do not want to have an encounter with Him simply won't. Why should He bother with people who hate Him?

You don't want to see God, so you don't, it's as simple as that. Tbh, I don't blame Him one bit. If you reject the teachings of a teacher, they're going to prefer not to teach you.

chappy · 2013-05-09, 05:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by jasong

Take out the H in IMHO. Only idiots refer to THEMSELVES as humble.

As for the "prove it," the proof is the Holy Spirit. Those who do not want to have an encounter with Him simply won't. Why should He bother with people who hate Him?

You don't want to see God, so you don't, it's as simple as that. Tbh, I don't blame Him one bit. If you reject the teachings of a teacher, they're going to prefer not to teach you.

Just so long as we all agree that you've left the realm of reason and logic and retreated to the realm of my invisible friend says so. I'm sorry but there really isn't a reason for me to engage with you on this subject anymore--our world view is too different.

PS. He should bother with people who 'hate' Him (though I'm not sure that the word hate applies to anyone here since you have to believe something exists to hate it,) because in your world view He is responsible for creating us.

He also, presumably, would be adult enough to take some criticism without going all spastic.

He also, according to some Christians, has the quality of infinite Love.

PPS. RE: humble see Matt. 5:22

xilman · 2013-05-09, 06:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by jasong

Take out the H in IMHO. Only idiots refer to THEMSELVES as humble.

Not true. You should have your irony detector serviced as it is clearly malfunctioning.

jasong · 2013-05-09, 08:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by xilman

Not true. You should have your irony detector serviced as it is clearly malfunctioning.

People can't label themselves as humble, it doesn't work that way. It's like "The game," once you include yourself in the category you're automatically disqualified from playing.

A person can say they TRY to be humble, but being humble means placing others above yourself. Labeling oneself as humble negates that, it proves the person is about themselves.

I suppose the H could be put there accidentally, in which case I apologize. Either way, humility is not a category we can assign ourselves to, because if we do, it's simply proven that we did what we did for our own gain. It's like Christianity, if you believe you deserve it, you automatically don't.

davar55 · 2013-05-09, 13:28

Can one be certain there is no god without being able to
provide an incontrovertible proof of the fact to someone else?
This may be a personal matter, but I would say yes. Can the
opposite be so, i.e. can one be certain there is a god without
proof? Many convey such certainty, but there is much evidence
of non-logic in their expressions of belief. Is agnosticism truly
an option, i.e. denying the issue's being open to logical proof
one way or the other? I would say that's untenable. Of all
the options, I think the most acceptable is to require proof
for oneself and reject illogic from others. As someone here
once said, it all depends on your basic definitions.

xilman · 2013-05-09, 16:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by jasong

People can't label themselves as humble, it doesn't work that way. It's like "The game," once you include yourself in the category you're automatically disqualified from playing.

I repeat: get your irony detector fixed.

chalsall · 2013-05-09, 16:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by davar55

Can one be certain there is no god without being able to provide an incontrovertible proof of the fact to someone else?

No.

If I may share my "personal experience" (something which seems to be so very important to the faithful) I was raised in a very religious (Christian) family. Hell, I was named after Christ!

At the age of about twelve, after having listened to a great deal of language from my family talking about things which didn't seem to be supported by empirical evidence, I declared I was converting to Atheism.

Oh, the shame! The outrage!

Then, at the age of about sixteen (after getting some surprising good schooling in mathematics, physics, chemistry, biology and free thought from the Canadian public schooling system (and the literature available retail there)) I realized that I couldn't know for sure. This is when I then converted to Agnosticism.

Only at the end of the day (read: each of our own individual deaths) might each of know for sure what is true.

Until then, I believe, it is incumbent upon each of us to question everything we are told, believe and think. After all, if any God(s) exist, it/they gave us a brain for a reason.

cheesehead · 2013-05-09, 19:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by davar55

Can one be certain there is no god without being able to provide an incontrovertible proof of the fact to someone else?

No, but

a) there is objective evidence that God exists in the form of human thoughts (MRI scans and such ...)

b) I've never seen any objective evidence that God exists as anything other than thoughts in human minds.

During the past two decades, I've asked several people (who claimed to believe in God) whether they could provide any objective evidence that God exists (as other than ...). No one has done so yet.

I've asked for such evidence on this and other forums. No one there has provided or pointed to any.

At one blog where the blogger had chastised the National Academy of Sciences for failing to provide objective evidence that God didn't exist, I posted a request for objective evidence that God _did_ exist (as other than ...). My posted request was deleted. I re-posted my request. It was deleted again.

2013-05-09, 13:28	#338
davar55 May 2004 New York City 108B₁₆ Posts	Can one be certain there is no god without being able to provide an incontrovertible proof of the fact to someone else? This may be a personal matter, but I would say yes. Can the opposite be so, i.e. can one be certain there is a god without proof? Many convey such certainty, but there is much evidence of non-logic in their expressions of belief. Is agnosticism truly an option, i.e. denying the issue's being open to logical proof one way or the other? I would say that's untenable. Of all the options, I think the most acceptable is to require proof for oneself and reject illogic from others. As someone here once said, it all depends on your basic definitions.