The inimitable RDS

[R.D. Silverman]

Originally Posted by Batalov

There's an interesting historical anecdote where he was being John Malkovich! The world was cruel then, and the world is still cruel now, 2+ years later. He played both sides of the field and he didn't win.

Aha! I was not aware of the prior thread. It seems that both axn
and Serge tried to teach him in a thread 6 years ago. Maybe you think
that they took an 'anti-social' approach as well? Perhaps they were 'mean'
to him as well?

KEP treated them with the same disdain and lack of respect as he did me
in the recent thread. He accused them of not understanding what
he was doing. (a frequent reply from cranks when experts tell them
they are wong: accuse of the expert of 'not understanding')

People claim my approach does not work. But the prior thread is strong
evidence that the "be nice" approach does not work either with cranks.
They want what they want. They will do what they do. And anyone
who tries to give an honest assessment of their work or tries
to dissuade them instantly becomes a 'tyran' (sic), and an asshole.


KEP was not an amateur. Amateurs have at least some interest in
taking the advice of experts and in learning the rudiments of the
mathematics and algorithms behind what they are doing. KEP was
just a totally ignorant jerk who was convinced that he knew it all,
and was unwilling to listen to others. Classic Dunning & Kruger.

The ONLY thing to do with such people is to get them to leave.

Had I been aware of the prior thread I would have been even more
direct.

David Gerrold once wrote an essay "Don't ask me to read your
fucking manuscript". He had a number of interesting observations.

(1) It might take a page or two of reading a written piece to determine
that its author knows how to write, but it only takes a paragraph to
learn that they don't.

(2) People are not looking for a true critique of their work. They are
looking for confirmation that whatever gibberish they have written is
worthy of high praise. If he (Gerrold) ever gave an honest critique,
the person who submitted the manuscript instantly would become
hostile toward him. Regardless of how 'nice' he was in his response,
they became hostile if they didn't like what he said.

(3) People might ask for a critique, but they really have no idea of the
time commitment it takes for a professional author to read a script.
He compared to others asking him to read their script with people asking
the house painter to come paint his living room for free.


The same thing happens here. I need to read only a few sentences
of so-called technical discussion to determine that the writer has no
clue as to what he is doing. And invariably, they react with hostility
to a honest critique.

And then all the other people in this forum jump on the "Bob's being rude, Bob is mean" bandwagon as a response to my professional appraisal.

This is a forum for discussion of mathematics. If you don't want professional
follow-on discussion then DON'T POST. Or else post in the 'misc math
thread'. Or perhaps the admins here will actually take my advice and
set up an 'amateur math forum' where cranks can post without worrying
about receiving any criticism. Indeed, I promise to stay out of it.

I hope that the admins will similarly promise to MOVE crank threads,
or any thread where it is clear that the the poster does not understand
the material OUT of the math sub-forum and into the 'amateur' forum.

I also wish there were a mechanism to keep cranks restricted to the
misc math sub-forum.

Indeed. Batalov and axn KNEW this guy was a nut case. KEP's post should
have been moved to 'misc math' as soon as it appeared based on his
PRIOR DISDAIN.

[R.D. Silverman]

Originally Posted by xilman

Bob, there are a number of people here who believe that you are a crank who is essentially clueless at social intercourse and who makes no attempt to learn from those who are capable and willing to teach you.

There is NO EVIDENCE that your "be nice" approach is any more effective
at getting cranks to listen tham my approach is. Indeed, Serge's and
axns prior experience with KEP showed that the 'nice' approach DOES NOT
WORK with such people.

You give them the impression that you are uneducable, have a bad attitude and no respect for the expertise of others.

If you refer to the so-called 'psychological expertise' claimed by a number
of people, I must ask: when/where did they get their psych degree?
If you refer to the math expertise of others, I listen all the time to
people who know more than I do. Re-read the list of mathematicians
that I posted. You can be sure that when they tell me something, I
listen and learn from them.

Convince me that the 'nice' approach works in getting cranks and
the willfully ignorant to take advice.

When someone with expertise in psychology suggests an approach
to handling cranks that actually is shown to work, you can be sure
that I will adapt that approach.

[fivemack]

Originally Posted by literka

Don't laugh in a situation like this. He came in a good will to share experience after doing a terrible job. May be he was wrong, but he did not deserve to be called crank. When he said "bye" he heard "one crank less". This is not what civilized people are doing. That's not funny at all.

I agree entirely with this sentiment.

[fivemack]

Originally Posted by R.D. Silverman

There is NO EVIDENCE that your "be nice" approach is any more effective
at getting cranks to listen tham my approach is.

No there isn't. But this is making the assumption that getting 'cranks' to go away in a huff is a reasonable and positive thing to do. I find them very significantly less troublesome than your forum-damaging vehemence in their direction.

mersenneforum.org isn't sci.math in its heyday; it was never sci.math in any way at all. If you want something reasonably reminiscent of sci.math in its heyday, go to http://mathoverflow.net, go to Terence Tao's blog ... there are quite a number of places where there are real mathematicians doing hard conceptual things rather than software development, you'll probably feel more at home there.

Or start your own blog, post about the papers you've read and found interesting, see what sort of comments you get; in your own blog you can be as restrictive as you like to cranks.

[fivemack]

Originally Posted by R.D. Silverman

Or perhaps the admins here will actually take my advice and
set up an 'amateur math forum' where cranks can post without worrying
about receiving any criticism. Indeed, I promise to stay out of it.

The admins did. Some time ago. It's called mersenneforum.org.

[Dubslow]

Originally Posted by R.D. Silverman

[and resent!!] my advice).

That's because you shove it down their throats. "Advice" is not the same thing as "order". There is nothing mandatory about needing to accept advice; you need to learn that others have a right to listen to your advice, consider it, and not accept it. No one has said your advice isn't valuable -- it certainly is -- but when people say "Thank you for your time and advice, but I'm going to continue anyways" that does NOT mean that you should continue posting your advice. They've made their decision, that the more you repeat your advice the less likely they are to accept it. (See my post in the other thread.)

Originally Posted by R.D. Silverman

But it does have successes. I have succeeded in getting the crank who
started all this to leave the forum. I count driving away cranks as a
success.

Again, not good, as has been discussed.

Originally Posted by R.D. Silverman

In other words, I am a tyrant because I try to tell others that what
they are doing is hopeless.

You are a tyrant because you don't let others reject your advice, silly as that may be. A quote, definition 2:
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/tyrant

2
a : a ruler who exercises absolute power oppressively or brutally
b : one resembling an oppressive ruler in the harsh use of authority or power

Giving your advice is a wonderful thing, however YOU HAVE NO RIGHT TO FORCE PEOPLE TO ACCEPT YOUR ADVICE. Your continued attempts to force your view on them is what leads to the label tyrant, which for these reasons is a deserved label.

Originally Posted by R.D. Silverman

And the last sentence I quoted clearly shows resentment towards me
because I am an expert.

They resent you because you give your advice, which they (not wisely perhaps, but well within their rights) do not accept; then you continue to flaunt that you are an expert, that your advice is valuable, and doing everything possible to demonstrate your superiority. People don't like that, and will resent you for it. (These paragraphs apply to a lot more than just forums of mathematics, or even forums in general.)

Originally Posted by R.D. Silverman

Teachers should have
the right to bounce students with bad attitudes from the classroom.

I'll repeat it for the thousandth time, because the message has not been recieved: THIS IS NOT YOUR CLASSROOM. THIS IS NOT A CLASSROOM OF ANY SORT UNTIL THE PERSON LOOKING FOR HELP ACKNOWLEDGES THAT IT IS (and thus becomes the student). Conversely, until a thread is acknowledged as a classroom, you have every right to withhold advice and help.


Almost all of this post (and my other post in the sister thread) is a rephrase of what cheesehead posted, and the "not a classroom" business is equivalent to "they can choose to not accept your advice, and you must accept that" or at least, you should accept that, much as others should accept your advice.

[only_human]

• Hello, my name is Cool Hand Luke and I am an alcoholic.
• "What we've got here is failure to communicate. Some men you just can't reach. So you get what we had here last week, which is the way he wants it... well, he gets it. I don't like it any more than you men."
• Is this where the jiǎntǎo (检讨) is being held? I brought popcorn.
• Today, we have a special screening of Leiningen Versus the Ants (spoiler: the ants lose)
• "No one can eat 50 eggs."

[davieddy]

Originally Posted by R.D. Silverman

This task is a hopeless waste of time. You might be able to find the first PRP
greater than 10^6, although what value the computation might have is
beyond me.

But proving it prime is so far beyond what current computers and algorithms
can do that even attempting it is ridiculous.

Lookin' for Trouble?

You've come to the right place

Only Joking

So you'll have to settle for Done too much

The Incorrigible

Found it!
Stuck on you

Team of Wild Horses USW

[davieddy]

You are a Star