The inimitable RDS - Page 5

xilman · 2012-06-08, 16:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by R.D. Silverman

No one said (in their own choice of vernacular): "Bob is blunt, but he is also right. What you are attempting is futile"

Earlier in the thread you wrote

Quote:

Originally Posted by R.D. Silverman

This task is a hopeless waste of time. You might be able to find the first PRP greater than 10^6, although what value the computation might have is beyond me.

But proving it prime is so far beyond what current computers and algorithms
can do that even attempting it is ridiculous.

I told him

Quote:

Originally Posted by xilman

Not strictly true.

It may be that the (recursive) factorization of p \pm 1 is possible with current computers and algorithms. The likelihood of that being the case is somewhere between nil and negligible.

The value of the computation, IMO, is bragging rights. Look at me, I won the jackpot!

In case you didn't understand my response the first time around I will try to rephrase it.

Bob is correct: proving primality is hopeless. The value of the computation is that it allows you to claim that you performed the computation.

In hindsight, perhaps I should have made it explicit that "The only value is ..." but in my dialect of English using the definitive article implies uniqueness. If I'd wished to allow that there may be other values I would have written "A value is ..."

Understand it now?

Paul

R.D. Silverman · 2012-06-08, 17:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by xilman

Bob is correct: proving primality is hopeless. The value of the computation is that it allows you to claim that you performed the computation.

He did not listen to you either. Which proves my point.

He was a crank with a bad attitude and a lack of respect for the
expertise of others.

bsquared · 2012-06-08, 17:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by R.D. Silverman

But it does have successes. I have succeeded in getting the crank who
started all this to leave the forum. I count driving away cranks as a
success.

I don't know how you can consider that a success. If your (laudable) goal is to educate people then you have demostratably not succeeded here - he is going to continue doing what he's doing, just not on this forum.

If your (IMO, not laudable) goal is to berate and drive folks away (regardless of why), then you have brillantly succeeded.

It's lose-lose: you either haven't succeeded at a laudable goal or you have succeeded at an un-laudable one. In the process, you've wasted a bunch of people's time (moderators, your own, etc.).

literka · 2012-06-08, 17:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by R.D. Silverman

He did not listen to you either. Which proves my point.

He was a crank with a bad attitude and a lack of respect for the
expertise of others.

He was kind and was trying to explain what he was doing. But this is not most important. He wrote how much time he spent for his research. But it did not mean anything for you. You are blindfolded. You don't feel any respect for somebody's work. You wrote that his work was worthless. This shows that you are a novice, since watching progress gives always some experience even if there are not results. I don't feel any respect for you.

xilman · 2012-06-08, 17:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by R.D. Silverman

He did not listen to you either. Which proves my point.

He was a crank with a bad attitude and a lack of respect for the
expertise of others.

I don't draw that conclusion. The evidence is fully consistent with the hypothesis that he listened to me, considered my argument and found it unconvincing. That's fine by me. It gets boring being omniscient and omnipotent all the time.

That, though, is not the point. I quoted one of your posts which made a specific claim. I then quoted one of mine which, in my view, provided explicit evidence that your claim was erroneous. I note that so far you have not addressed that particular issue.

xilman · 2012-06-08, 17:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by bsquared

Quote:

Originally Posted by R.D. Silverman

But it does have successes. I have succeeded in getting the crank who
started all this to leave the forum. I count driving away cranks as a
success.

I don't know how you can consider that a success. If your (laudable) goal is to educate people then you have demostratably not succeeded here - he is going to continue doing what he's doing, just not on this forum.

If your (IMO, not laudable) goal is to berate and drive folks away (regardless of why), then you have brillantly succeeded.

It's lose-lose: you either haven't succeeded at a laudable goal or you have succeeded at an un-laudable one. In the process, you've wasted a bunch of people's time (moderators, your own, etc.).

Bob, there are a number of people here who believe that you are a crank who is essentially clueless at social intercourse and who makes no attempt to learn from those who are capable and willing to teach you. You give them the impression that you are uneducable, have a bad attitude and no respect for the expertise of others. Would it be a success if you were to be driven away?

Any of the supermods would find it essentially trivial to drive you away through a task which would take them a few seconds at most.

I have spent quite a lot of effort over the years attempting to protect you from such an outcome. The fact that you are still posting here may be evidence that I'm having a modicum of success.

Batalov · 2012-06-08, 17:44

I suspect that nobody succeeded here, in the particular case.

What probably happened is that after a "1000 CPU-days of sieving", the contestant finally ran one PRP test. And it returned composite (ohhh! the shock!). He ran another, and another. He ran a hundred. Still no prime! Then he finally saw that he needs to run several tens of thousands of tests more. So he quit, right there. But could he admit that he didn't think it through thoroughly from the start? That he didn't have commitment to many years of doing this? No way! Surely, it is the other people who are cruel and whose attitude made him quit. He will rather be a martyr and he will go out with a bang. "Goodbye, cruel virtual world! I will commit virtual seppuku and you cruel virtual people will be very, very sorry! And it's all because of the evil tyran. It's either him or me!"

There's an interesting historical anecdote where he was being John Malkovich! The world was cruel then, and the world is still cruel now, 2+ years later. He played both sides of the field and he didn't win.

P.S. To his argument that "this strong megaPRP will be very valuable for this-and-that tests" - there are four excellent mega-decimal-digit PRPs already to choose from and undoubtedly there will be more; the repunit project is long overdue, for example.

literka · 2012-06-08, 18:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by Batalov

I suspect that nobody succeeded here, in the particular case.

What probably happened is that after a "1000 CPU-days of sieving", the contestant finally ran one PRP test. And it returned composite (ohhh! the shock!). He ran another, and another. He ran a hundred. Still no prime! Then he finally saw that he needs to run several tens of thousands of tests more. So he quit, right there. But could he admit that he didn't think it through thoroughly from the start? That he didn't have commitment to many years of doing this? No way! Surely, it is the other people who are cruel and whose attitude made him quit. He will rather be a martyr and he will go out with a bang. "Goodbye, cruel virtual world! I will commit virtual seppuku and you cruel virtual people will be very, very sorry! And it's all because of the evil tyran. It's either him or me!"

There's an interesting historical anecdote where he was being John Malkovich! The world was cruel then, and the world is still cruel now, 2+ years later. He played both sides of the field and he didn't win.

P.S. To his argument that "this strong megaPRP will be very valuable for this-and-that tests" - there are four excellent mega-decimal-digit PRPs already to choose from and undoubtedly there will be more; the repunit project is long overdue, for example.

Don't laugh in a situation like this. He came in a good will to share experience after doing a terrible job. May be he was wrong, but he did not deserve to be called crank. When he said "bye" he heard "one crank less". This is not what civilized people are doing. That's not funny at all.

Batalov · 2012-06-08, 18:28

Was I laughing?

Did you read his diatribe how Five-or-Bust (or a part of it) was a waste of time? Did you feel any hint of irony? Five-or-Bust is now a successfully completed project (well, except for the now-impossible prime tests).
__________________

P.S. Anecdote in English language is not the same word as in Russian (and possibly in Polish). Anecdote means 'an interesting story about a real incident or person'. Not necessarily funny. (Otherwise 'humorous anecdote' would have been a tautology.)

literka · 2012-06-08, 18:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by Batalov

Was I laughing?

Did you read his diatribe how Five-or-Bust (or a part of it) was a waste of time? Did you feel any hint of irony? Five-or-Bust is now a successfully completed project (well, except for the now-impossible prime tests).
__________________

P.S. Anecdote in English language is not the same word as in Russian (and possibly in Polish). Anecdote means 'an interesting story about a real incident or person'. Not necessarily funny. (Otherwise 'humorous anecdote' would have been a tautology.)

Sorry, I had a felt your irony as you were describing Kep's work. This is the worst thing to do - to laugh of somebody's work even if it was waste of time.
But I could be wrong, so ignore this post, please.

R.D. Silverman · 2012-06-08, 19:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by xilman

Bob, there are a number of people here who believe that you are a crank who is essentially clueless at social intercourse and who makes no attempt to learn from those who are capable and willing to teach you. You give them the impression that you are uneducable, have a bad attitude and no respect for the expertise of others. Would it be a success if you were to be driven away?

Any of the supermods would find it essentially trivial to drive you away through a task which would take them a few seconds at most.

I have spent quite a lot of effort over the years attempting to protect you from such an outcome. The fact that you are still posting here may be evidence that I'm having a modicum of success.

One of my goals is to keep this forum from turning into sci.math.

Once upon a time (back in the 80's and early 90's) sci.math was
a teriific place to discuss mathematics. Gradually (endless September
had a big role) it became INUNDATED with cranks, trolls, loons,
religious Zealots, anti-Einstein nuts, etc. etc.

The way to keep this from becoming sci.math is to drive out the cranks
and those with an unwillingness to learn.

And I see ZERO evidence that the "gentle" approach that you and others
take is any more effective at getting the cranks, trolls, and uneducated
who post herein to listen to you than they listen to me. They don't listen
to you either.

2012-06-08, 18:28	#53
Batalov "Serge" Mar 2008 Phi(4,2^7658614+1)/2 9,497 Posts	Was I laughing? Did you read his diatribe how Five-or-Bust (or a part of it) was a waste of time? Did you feel any hint of irony? Five-or-Bust is now a successfully completed project (well, except for the now-impossible prime tests). __________________ P.S. Anecdote in English language is not the same word as in Russian (and possibly in Polish). Anecdote means 'an interesting story about a real incident or person'. Not necessarily funny. (Otherwise 'humorous anecdote' would have been a tautology.) Last fiddled with by Batalov on 2012-06-08 at 18:37

2012-06-08, 17:44	#51
Batalov "Serge" Mar 2008 Phi(4,2^7658614+1)/2 9,497 Posts	I suspect that nobody succeeded here, in the particular case. What probably happened is that after a "1000 CPU-days of sieving", the contestant finally ran one PRP test. And it returned composite (ohhh! the shock!). He ran another, and another. He ran a hundred. Still no prime! Then he finally saw that he needs to run several tens of thousands of tests more. So he quit, right there. But could he admit that he didn't think it through thoroughly from the start? That he didn't have commitment to many years of doing this? No way! Surely, it is the other people who are cruel and whose attitude made him quit. He will rather be a martyr and he will go out with a bang. "Goodbye, cruel virtual world! I will commit virtual seppuku and you cruel virtual people will be very, very sorry! And it's all because of the evil tyran. It's either him or me!" There's an interesting historical anecdote where he was being John Malkovich! The world was cruel then, and the world is still cruel now, 2+ years later. He played both sides of the field and he didn't win. P.S. To his argument that "this strong megaPRP will be very valuable for this-and-that tests" - there are four excellent mega-decimal-digit PRPs already to choose from and undoubtedly there will be more; the repunit project is long overdue, for example.