Cooperative Agreement or Capitalist Takeover? You decide!

[cheesehead]

Mersenne@home (http://mersenneathome.net/) is a BOINC-based project that appears to be duplicating GIMPS effort in finding Mersenne primes. The BOINC base means he has accumulated thousands of computers already.

Rather than posting criticisms on the forums (http://mersenneathome.net/forum_index.php) over there, let's collectively brainstorm here:

(1) to write a document that carefully explains the advantages of cooperation and disadvantages of competition, and

(2) think up ways in which a BOINC-based project can cooperate with GIMPS.

Please, don't go over there and post criticisms based on the idea that GIMPS is superior to their project. Instead of convincing Sebastian M. Bobrecki, the founder and leader, to cooperate with us, you might just antagonize him and give him the idea that it'd be good to leap-frog over the ranges GIMPS is currently testing systematically.

If Mersenne@home starts testing higher exponents without cooperating with us, there could be all sorts of trouble. So, please don't provoke their leader. Right now, their duplication in effort may offend your optimization sensibilities, but it isn't actually causing any damage. Let's leave it that way until we have a document that politely and carefully explains the joys of cooperation.

[Dubslow]

I'm curious, he must have known about GIMPS before starting; GIMPS is everywhere associated with the ~10 most recent discoveries. (13?) He has GIMPS' discoveries listed as known on his site. Therefore when he started the project, he must have had some sort of reason. Does anybody know what that is?

I do like the idea btw.

[cheesehead]

Originally Posted by Dubslow

I'm curious, he must have known about GIMPS before starting; GIMPS is everywhere associated with the ~10 most recent discoveries. (13?) He has GIMPS' discoveries listed as known on his site. Therefore when he started the project, he must have had some sort of reason. Does anybody know what that is?

My guesses:

(1) He's probably fond of math and started just for the fun of developing a BOINC client to do something mathematical, possibly before knowing about GIMPS

(2) Even after learning about GIMPS, he seems to think that his project can contribute something unique: the distribution of found factors can help predict locations of future Mersenne primes. Though we may think we have proof that this cannot possibly turn out to be useful, let's not provoke possible stubbornness by denigrating this. Possibly, this was just a rationalization for keeping his project going in spite of GIMPS's presence.

(3) Let's not underestimate the advantage that the BOINC platform gives Mersenne@home in terms of the ease with which it can recruit thousands of participants. I think he has about 1/10th of GIMPS's throughput now (without discounting their THz for their inefficiencies), but the BOINCness will make it possible to surpass GIMPS (even if H@h M@h is less efficient) more readily than some of you might imagine.

- - -

If we can convince Mersenne@home to collaborate with GIMPS, that could bring a sharp jump in our rate of progress.

I've always thought we were missing out by not having a BOINC client. So now that someone's beaten us to that, let's carefully explore ways of cooperation. How to synchronize data, for instance. And let's not always presume that Mersenne@home necessarily has to convert to doing things GIMPS's way in all matters.

(There's also the tricky business of EFF prize money ...)

[Dubslow]

Originally Posted by cheesehead

(3) Let's not underestimate the advantage that the BOINC platform gives Mersenne@home in terms of the ease with which it can recruit thousands of participants. I think he has about 1/10th of GIMPS's throughput now (without discounting their THz for their inefficiencies), but the BOINCness will make it possible to surpass GIMPS (even if H@h is less efficient) more readily than some of you might imagine.

Yes, previously it had caused me to wonder if we should port GIMPS to BOINC, or at least make it BOINC-able...

[cheesehead]

Now that I've looked over the Mersenne@home site so more, it seems that the only type of work it has done so far is trial division, with no L-L work queued or accomplished yet.

My comments above about trouble caused by leapfrogging GIMPS were intended to refer to L-L only.

M@h's TF work seems to go up to exponent 9,999,999,999, compared to GIMPS's limit of 999,999,999.

[Dubslow]

They used to do only LL work, but some time back, Batalov talked them into TF (which they took a bit too close to heart).

[Brian-E]

Cheesehead, I note your latest remark about LL work not currently being done by this competitor, only TF work (and Dubslow's information that they used to do LL work too). But let's assume that this new site does actually start some serious competition with GIMPS in the future if they are not already doing that now. I'd like to advocate that we welcome their initiative and let them carry on. I take this position because I don't see it as competition at all.

I'd like to quote something you told me almost 5 years ago when, as a new participant, I asked a question in the "Information & Answers" section of this forum.

Originally Posted by Brian-E

[...]It is not really independently verifiable that what GIMPS now calls M39 is the 39th Mersenne because no-one can run tens of thousands of computers for another 10 years.[...]

Originally Posted by cheesehead

[...]Yes, it is possible to do independent verification! What GIMPS did in its first 10 years takes less and less time to independently verify as computers get faster. The CPU I now use is over 40 times as fast as the one I used my first five years in GIMPS. I (or anyone else) could re-perform my first five years of GIMPS work in a couple of months now, using independently-written software if so wished to serve as verification.[...]

If a serious organisation manages to achieve some serious independent checking/verification of the results which GIMPS has already determined, that will significantly improve the confidence in those results.

I appreciate that the "competitor" could also be LL-testing larger Mersenne numbers which the GIMPS members have yet to tackle. Then GIMPS is the independent verifier. I don't have any problem with this. Do other people perceive this as a problem?

Obviously the independent working does not need to extend to ignoring factors of Mersenne numbers found by the other group, since a known factor does not need independent discovery. I hope an amicable agreement can be sought between the two parties so that the competing databases can share known factors between each other.

[cheesehead]

Originally Posted by Brian-E

If a serious organisation manages to achieve some serious independent checking/verification of the results which GIMPS has already determined, that will significantly improve the confidence in those results.

Yes, at least to some folks who might doubt GIMPS's perfection in this particular regard.

I appreciate that the "competitor" could also be LL-testing larger Mersenne numbers which the GIMPS members have yet to tackle. Then GIMPS is the independent verifier. I don't have any problem with this. Do other people perceive this as a problem?

Some will.

I think it could be problematic if not set up cooperatively. If we have, in effect if not intention, the possibility of "poaching" by each project on the other project's assignments-in-progress, that's trouble. I think that the document I propose _must_ address the method by which we might avoid overlapping assignments. (Remember that there's EFF prize money at stake, too.)

Obviously the independent working does not need to extend to ignoring factors of Mersenne numbers found by the other group, since a known factor does not need independent discovery. I hope an amicable agreement can be sought between the two parties so that the competing databases can share known factors between each other.

Yes.

IIRC I saw a comment by Bobrecki to the effect that (what follows is my paraphrase!) he was reluctant to use any information about factors that GIMPS already has in its database, because that sort of "belonged" to GIMPS. This is something else that our "Mersenne Project Cooperation" document must address.

(There! I came up with a title! But other nominations are still in order.)

[cheesehead]

Originally Posted by Dubslow

They used to do only LL work, but some time back, Batalov talked them into TF (which they took a bit too close to heart).

Now I vaguely recall that (or maybe I'm just suggestible). Thanks for the reminder.

[Dubslow]

Originally Posted by cheesehead

Yes, at least to some folks who might doubt GIMPS's perfection in this particular regard.

Some will.

I think it could be problematic if not set up cooperatively. If we have, in effect if not intention, the possibility of "poaching" by each project on the other project's assignments-in-progress, that's trouble. I think that the document I propose _must_ address the method by which we might avoid overlapping assignments. (Remember that there's EFF prize money at stake, too.)

Yes.

IIRC I saw a comment by Bobrecki to the effect that (what follows is my paraphrase!) he was reluctant to use any information about factors that GIMPS already has in its database, because that sort of "belonged" to GIMPS. This is something else that our "Mersenne Project Cooperation" document must address.

(There! I came up with a title! But other nominations are still in order.)

There's also the question of how "serious" they are. Considering how much ignorance they've shown with regards to TF, and then swinging to the complete opposite end of the spectrum, I'm not convinced that their program is good, unless we see some of the earlier LL results. I would love to be proven wrong.

Originally Posted by cheesehead

"Mersenne Project Cooperation"
(There! I came up with a title! But other nominations are still in order.)

Mersenne Prime Search Cooperation Agreement

Originally Posted by cheesehead

Now I vaguely recall that (or maybe I'm just suggestible). Thanks for the reminder.

Let's just wait until that particular man himself comes online to verify our collective memories.

[cheesehead]

Originally Posted by Dubslow

There's also the question of how "serious" they are.

Let's presume seriousness and sincerity. The BOINC platform makes it not-too-difficult to surpass GIMPS throughput, so politeness is in order.

Considering how much ignorance they've shown with regards to TF, and then swinging to the complete opposite end of the spectrum, I'm not convinced that their program is good,

Let's proceed with polite sincerity and education.

Mersenne Prime Search Cooperation Agreement

Better than mine! :-)

Let's just wait until that particular man himself comes online to verify our collective memories.