RDS's unique pedagogic ways

[fivemack]

Originally Posted by R.D. Silverman

YES THEY DO. The very act of asking questions of SMEs makes them into students.

And you would be entirely within your rights to complain at least as loudly as you do in public to people asking you daft questions by private message.

But the posters on this forum are not asking questions of you by virtue of posting to public threads.

[R.D. Silverman]

Originally Posted by fivemack

And you would be entirely within your rights to complain at least as loudly as you do in public to people asking you daft questions by private message.

But the posters on this forum are not asking questions of you by virtue of posting to public threads.

Which is why I said SMEs (plural!).

Questions, by themselves are not daft, even if they show gross misunderstanding. What is daft is an unwillingness to do something to
correct the misunderstanding.

And although I know noone will agree with me, I could say in response to the
claim that these people are not students: "Fine. They are not students.
An appropriate response to them would therefore be: 'Since you have no
interest in learning, you have no need to know the answer to your question'"

[Christenson]

Originally Posted by fivemack

As for Toom, presumably you mean

http://michel.delord.free.fr/toom_russ.html

It's the complaint of a man who had been an elite teacher of well-selected elites in the Soviet Union having suddenly to teach people who weren't interested in learning for its own sake, in a culture where having that attitude was accepted in a way that it wasn't among the Moscow intelligentsia.

It's definitely saddening, but I agree with Toom's claim that it's a side-effect of declaring that everybody should go through tertiary education.

Funny, I won't get to Toom's essay for a bit, but I thought I said almost as much.....and it follows directly from various statements about distinct differences in ability, and, of course, pigs singing....

We have conflated equal opportunity with equal outcomes.... I'm sorry, but those who love learning for its own sake have *always* been an elite.

And Bob, I too engineer stuff with potentially fatal consequences for failure...but the company president is much more concerned with whether I fit in his club (meaning showing up at an early hour, or whether I dress nicely) than how the work is actually going or actual ability. And we've hired some doozies with zero ability.

Can we get the link to John Dewey's Philosophy? I think we will find that "love of learning for it's own sake" was never present in most people, and requires a certain degree of intellectual and emotional security to keep alive.

If you want to kill it, put people in constantly over their head at an early age, and beat them up for it. They will soon take refuge in grades. Put people in classes with their age peers...so they are only rarely in a situation of information overload, and never comfortable with it.

Bob:
If you want to treat us forum posters as students, it is OK to tell us what we need to know and how far we will need to get before understanding, say, QS or SNFS or GNFS. It is OK to tell that person who thought he might have developed Octonians what is already known about them (a lot), and where to read up on it. But telling that person to Stop the exploration now (remember that?) is not OK. It is not OK to complain when we prattle (all students do). It is not OK to read something targeted at the lowest level carelessly, and decide it is wrong, when it in fact only needs a little re-stating to be both clear and correct (extended reals, and addition and multiplication being isomorphic in a limited sense). These things DISCOURAGE learning. [There's a certain superficiality about the effort involved in insulting posters, and they "get it"...apparently you don't, so we are trying to tell you here!]

If you want to be effective here, ask the moderators to sort things into threads that indicate the level of the subject matter. I have no problem finding the Octonian thread I referred to above moving into an "undergraduate" subforum, for example...or when I start asking basic questions about fibonacci numbers (and possibly asking for help on proofs) to find that called "homework", for that is the level at which it is...it is *not* research math, and it helps everyone to have that clearly identified.

And do remember that even the smartest of us here have all kinds of crazy constraints...think about what that job of yours entails, and add on a partner in my case...you might want to remember just how much time living well with a partner takes! I'm still working on directing my time effectively, will be for a long time.

[R.D. Silverman]

Originally Posted by Christenson

We have conflated equal opportunity with equal outcomes....

Amen!

[Random Poster]

Originally Posted by R.D. Silverman

Students do not decide what is to be taught. Faculty do.

Real students accept that when they sign up to become students. You are the only person who thinks that simply asking questions implies similar acceptance.

[wblipp]

Originally Posted by Christenson

I think we will find that "love of learning for it's own sake" was never present in most people, and requires a certain degree of intellectual and emotional security to keep alive.

Have you had much experience with kindergartners? My experience is that nearly everybody shows up at kindergarten with with a love of learning. By sixth grade traditional schools have beaten it out of most kids.

[Christenson]

Originally Posted by wblipp

Have you had much experience with kindergartners? My experience is that nearly everybody shows up at kindergarten with with a love of learning. By sixth grade traditional schools have beaten it out of most kids.

OK, glad to be wrong on that point...now just what is it we are doing wrong? Is it the conformism from same-age schooling? (not that I'd enjoy a kindergarten classroom right now...and not that "the system" is on-topic here)

However, this point takes little away from the idea that the current pedagogy from RDS is hardly likely to re-awaken that love....

[R.D. Silverman]

Originally Posted by Christenson

OK, glad to be wrong on that point...now just what is it we are doing wrong? Is it the conformism from same-age schooling? (not that I'd enjoy a kindergarten classroom right now...and not that "the system" is on-topic here)

However, this point takes little away from the idea that the current pedagogy from RDS is hardly likely to re-awaken that love....

My view is that people should not come into this forum unless they
still have that love of learning.

[retina]

Originally Posted by R.D. Silverman

My view is that people should not come into this forum unless they
still have that love of learning.

Hehe, sounds like an alcoholics anonymous meeting.

Hello. My name is retina and I still have that love of learning. My last enjoyable learning experience was two weeks ago.

[Christenson]

Originally Posted by R.D. Silverman

My view is that people should not come into this forum unless they
still have that love of learning.

Fine view...but you tend to handle the situation in a way that if people are wavering, they will lose their love, not regain it....I'm still trying to understand how to prove mesons and quarks exist....

[R.D. Silverman]

Originally Posted by Christenson

Fine view...but you tend to handle the situation in a way that if people are wavering, they will lose their love, not regain it....I'm still trying to understand how to prove mesons and quarks exist....

Did you see the movie "The Paper Chase"???

Think of me as Prof. Kingsfield. Students despise him. He tortures them.
But, for students who really want to learn the law he really gets
them to understand what it is about.

He gets the best out of dedicated students.
And does not care about the rest.