RDS's unique pedagogic ways - Page 2

science_man_88 · 2011-12-17, 17:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by R.D. Silverman

Yet another illustration of what I have been saying. People need to
do some background reading before opening their mouths.

The first question that should have been asked is: "Where can I learn
about how NFS works?", BEFORE asking any other question.

But some people never learn. And some refuse to learn.

they may be teaching methods but what good are they doing putting people down here when you could just as easily do the research to get someones email who cares to implement them in schools, how do you think I got mathematicians emails I know how to search, I just forgot to search about you and your "teaching" methods.

Fusion_power · 2011-12-17, 19:23

What? No mention of Dudley? He belongs in here somewhere.

I get frustrated from time to time with calls from people who want to know how to write a program on one of the systems I work with daily. The stuff they want me to give is simple and easily picked up from readily available documentation. The problem is that they want it handed to them on a platter.

RDS has the social skills of a wolverine. But to his credit, when I have asked a legitimate math related question he has given good suggestions of books to read. I'm still working on Poisson processes.

DarJones

R.D. Silverman · 2011-12-17, 19:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by science_man_88

they may be teaching methods but what good are they doing putting people down here when you could just as easily do the research to get someones email who cares to implement them in schools, how do you think I got mathematicians emails I know how to search, I just forgot to search about you and your "teaching" methods.

Huh??

I wrote:

"Yet another illustration of what I have been saying. People need to
do some background reading before opening their mouths.

The first question that should have been asked is: "Where can I learn
about how NFS works?", BEFORE asking any other question."

Since when is telling people to do necessary reading equal to
"putting people down"?? Since when is indicating the question that
should have been asked equal to "putting people down".

fivemack · 2011-12-17, 20:26

Telling people in public that they're asking the wrong question is almost never going to help. Nobody's going to do vague background reading before posting on a hobbyist forum; the moderators are not going to inscribe LET NOBODY IGNORANT OF ALGEBRAIC GEOMETRY ENTER HERE above the portals which this forum does not have.

Telling people in public that they can find the answer to their question by studying material clearly way above their experience level is not going to help.

Telling them in public what their misconception is and why, might help; at the very least it will provide the answer for the next person. 'This is a common misconception, SNFS and GNFS difficulties are very different things and SNFS difficulties don't have much to do with the size of the number being factorised, see $threadid for a detailed discussion'

R.D. Silverman · 2011-12-17, 23:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by fivemack

Telling people in public that they're asking the wrong question is almost never going to help. Nobody's going to do vague background reading before posting on a hobbyist forum; the moderators are not going to inscribe LET NOBODY IGNORANT OF ALGEBRAIC GEOMETRY ENTER HERE above the portals which this forum does not have.

They don't need algebraic geometry. They do need a mastery
of high school algebra.

And although I clearly am in the minority, I think that Plato's
admonishment would be quite apropos here.

I can't speak for European education, but at least in the U.S. (even
at the college level) education has become very superficial in many,
if not most subjects.

And I have interviewed many job candidates who claimed high GPA's
in math/physics/comp sci. who were very ignorant of their field.

Christenson · 2011-12-18, 04:52

Bob:

I hate to tell you this, but you must have gone to quite a nice high school....the sort of number theory being used here didn't get to me until well after I had graduated with a four year degree from one of the best engineering schools in the US. We never discussed some of the theoretical computer science (busy beaver machines) I have learned here, and SNFS/GNFS didn't exist. Kindly rember that Gauss was probably the last person to know all of the mathematics of his time.

When I was in graduate school, BDodson was running MPQS on the computers, and I occasionally had to kill it so I could do other kinds of math on one of the workstations.

As this is a hobbyist forum, you really can't expect people here to have serious amounts of math...calculus, possibly, but linear algebra, etc? And yes, the state of education is abysmal (degreed electrical engineer I work with can't apply ohm's law!, and another couldn't understand parasitic coupling, but she's not with us anymore) but decrying the state of my education or anyone else's (especially when I'm not in a math program anymore, but am working on a career) isn't likely to accomplish any education.

If you want to accomplish education, tell the truth, encourage questions that let you point people in the correct direction and level to study...and encourage them to study. Don't call them names, instead tell them they need to read up on X....and if you find steam beginning to exit your ears, realise that even you can't think in that state of mind and it's not good for you! It's better to shut up sometimes than to make a fool of yourself -- think of Spooner telling his student he had tasted two whole worms and would have to leave by the town drain!

***********
As for education, there are several underlying and serious problems:
1) There are real differences in talent among individuals. But the education system is set up to "educate" as many as possible, all to the same standard. The classic example is the 10:1 productivity differences in employed programmers, the only correlate being the organisation worked in.
2) There is much pressure from industry to learn the latest fad...we all need to be employed after graduating...and this comes at the expense of fundamentals. Consider the first round of "cold fusion", which fell apart on measurement of small temperature differences! In engineering, you are supposed to know the latest CAD tools...but if you were EDUCATED, you'd pick them up in a little while IF you had the fundamentals. Unfortunately, you would also ask questions that bothered your boss...like thinking up six other ways to skin the cat involved and asking if one of them was better...making you LESS employable on average.
3) As a consequence of being paid by students, colleges are pressured into measuring seat time, rather than knowledge learned...and to lower standards.
4) We have "standards of learning", by which secondary schools are given a low standard to teach to -- and take autonomy and boundaries away from the best teachers.
5) The average employer is looking for someone to fit into his "club". Vixra discusses this problem with arxiv, and makes it very obvious, especially in academia. But it was also true for MIT admissions (for me) and is clear in industry. I can find you plenty of job postings REQUIRING high GPAs, one employer I worked for wanted to fire their best product tester for lack of a degree.

But the problems with our education/employment system need a separate thread.....
*****

R.D. Silverman · 2011-12-18, 05:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by Christenson

Bob:

<snip>

As this is a hobbyist forum, you really can't expect people here to have serious amounts of math...calculus, possibly, but linear algebra, etc? And yes, the state of education is abysmal (degreed electrical engineer I work with can't apply ohm's law!, and another couldn't understand parasitic coupling, but she's not with us anymore) but decrying the state of my education or anyone else's (especially when I'm not in a math program anymore, but am working on a career) isn't likely to accomplish any education.

<snip>

I don't expect serious math. I do expect high school level math plus a
willingness to learn.

A good teacher tells the student not what he wants to know
but what he needs to know. If this is annoying to the student
then the student needs to grow up.

I really do suggest looking up and reading the Toom essay.

Suppose we had simply told the OP (as suggested by others) that
the size of numbers for GNFS and the size for SNFS were not related.
This may have satisfied the OP, but it really conveys NO understanding
of what is going on.

R.D. Silverman · 2011-12-18, 12:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by R.D. Silverman

I don't expect serious math. I do expect high school level math plus a
willingness to learn.

A good teacher tells the student not what he wants to know
but what he needs to know. If this is annoying to the student
then the student needs to grow up.

I really do suggest looking up and reading the Toom essay.

Suppose we had simply told the OP (as suggested by others) that
the size of numbers for GNFS and the size for SNFS were not related.
This may have satisfied the OP, but it really conveys NO understanding
of what is going on.

In college, students want and seem to expect good grades
in response to a superficial effort. Read the Toom essay.

Here, participants want credit for "GHz-days" (or equivalent) in
response to a superficial effort. [Why they want such "credit" is a
mystery to me]

I am in the role of Don Quixote here. It may be a futile effort but to
do nothing is to act as an enabler of the attitude that people
deserve "credit" for superficial efforts. I think that the prevalent
culture of this group also acts as an enabler of this attitude.

The title of this thread says that I am "unique" in my opinion. This is
clearly incorrect as the Toom essay shows. I am willing to be disliked
in order to convey my message. It's too bad that the prevalent culture
seems to expect to be rewarded for superficial effort. Can you say
"false sense of entitlement?"

I am hardly unique in my views.

xilman · 2011-12-18, 13:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by R.D. Silverman

I am hardly unique in my views.

Indeed. I have very similar views to you. Where we differ, and substantially, is how best to ameliorate the situation.

Let's take the issue which started this thread as an example. Someone didn't know an important difference between SNFS and GNFS. A near optimal response, in my opinion, would have been to answer the question as asked and then something along the lines of "a straight-forward explanation for this behaviour is given at the following URL ... or in this book ...".

Then those who flatly refuse to learn more are given an answer, but those who wish to learn more and hadn't hitherto recognized their ignorance are both enlightened and given the opportunity to educate themselves. Other readers of the thread, including those who find it via a search engine, have a similar opportunity.

I regret having given only an answer, and not a particularly good one at that, to the OP.

Paul

fivemack · 2011-12-18, 14:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by R.D. Silverman

Here, participants want credit for "GHz-days" (or equivalent) in
response to a superficial effort. [Why they want such "credit" is a
mystery to me]

There is a clear social desire, if lists exist, to be at the top of them. If I am surrounded by magpies, then it makes sense to arrange work that I want done in ways that it can be done usefully by magpies.

Quote:

The title of this thread says that I am "unique" in my opinion.

No; it says that you are unique in the forum in the way that you express your opinion. Your short, snide and predictable remarks very rarely lead to productive outcomes.

'Don't try to teach a pig to sing; it doesn't work and it annoys the pig'; and in my moderatorial role as pig-farmer, I'd rather people didn't come in and repeatedly annoy the pigs in ways that have never successfully made them sing in the past.

fivemack · 2011-12-18, 14:39

As for Toom, presumably you mean

http://michel.delord.free.fr/toom_russ.html

It's the complaint of a man who had been an elite teacher of well-selected elites in the Soviet Union having suddenly to teach people who weren't interested in learning for its own sake, in a culture where having that attitude was accepted in a way that it wasn't among the Moscow intelligentsia.

It's definitely saddening, but I agree with Toom's claim that it's a side-effect of declaring that everybody should go through tertiary education.

2011-12-17, 19:23	#13
Fusion_power Aug 2003 Snicker, AL 7×137 Posts	What? No mention of Dudley? He belongs in here somewhere. I get frustrated from time to time with calls from people who want to know how to write a program on one of the systems I work with daily. The stuff they want me to give is simple and easily picked up from readily available documentation. The problem is that they want it handed to them on a platter. RDS has the social skills of a wolverine. But to his credit, when I have asked a legitimate math related question he has given good suggestions of books to read. I'm still working on Poisson processes. DarJones Last fiddled with by Fusion_power on 2011-12-17 at 19:28

2011-12-17, 20:26	#15
fivemack (loop (#_fork)) Feb 2006 Cambridge, England 14423₈ Posts	Telling people in public that they're asking the wrong question is almost never going to help. Nobody's going to do vague background reading before posting on a hobbyist forum; the moderators are not going to inscribe LET NOBODY IGNORANT OF ALGEBRAIC GEOMETRY ENTER HERE above the portals which this forum does not have. Telling people in public that they can find the answer to their question by studying material clearly way above their experience level is not going to help. Telling them in public what their misconception is and why, might help; at the very least it will provide the answer for the next person. 'This is a common misconception, SNFS and GNFS difficulties are very different things and SNFS difficulties don't have much to do with the size of the number being factorised, see $threadid for a detailed discussion' Last fiddled with by fivemack on 2011-12-17 at 20:27

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2011-12-18, 04:52	#17
Christenson Dec 2010 Monticello 5×359 Posts	Bob: I hate to tell you this, but you must have gone to quite a nice high school....the sort of number theory being used here didn't get to me until well after I had graduated with a four year degree from one of the best engineering schools in the US. We never discussed some of the theoretical computer science (busy beaver machines) I have learned here, and SNFS/GNFS didn't exist. Kindly rember that Gauss was probably the last person to know all of the mathematics of his time. When I was in graduate school, BDodson was running MPQS on the computers, and I occasionally had to kill it so I could do other kinds of math on one of the workstations. As this is a hobbyist forum, you really can't expect people here to have serious amounts of math...calculus, possibly, but linear algebra, etc? And yes, the state of education is abysmal (degreed electrical engineer I work with can't apply ohm's law!, and another couldn't understand parasitic coupling, but she's not with us anymore) but decrying the state of my education or anyone else's (especially when I'm not in a math program anymore, but am working on a career) isn't likely to accomplish any education. If you want to accomplish education, tell the truth, encourage questions that let you point people in the correct direction and level to study...and encourage them to study. Don't call them names, instead tell them they need to read up on X....and if you find steam beginning to exit your ears, realise that even you can't think in that state of mind and it's not good for you! It's better to shut up sometimes than to make a fool of yourself -- think of Spooner telling his student he had tasted two whole worms and would have to leave by the town drain! ********* As for education, there are several underlying and serious problems: 1) There are real differences in talent among individuals. But the education system is set up to "educate" as many as possible, all to the same standard. The classic example is the 10:1 productivity differences in employed programmers, the only correlate being the organisation worked in. 2) There is much pressure from industry to learn the latest fad...we all need to be employed after graduating...and this comes at the expense of fundamentals. Consider the first round of "cold fusion", which fell apart on measurement of small temperature differences! In engineering, you are supposed to know the latest CAD tools...but if you were EDUCATED, you'd pick them up in a little while IF you had the fundamentals. Unfortunately, you would also ask questions that bothered your boss...like thinking up six other ways to skin the cat involved and asking if one of them was better...making you LESS employable on average. 3) As a consequence of being paid by students, colleges are pressured into measuring seat time, rather than knowledge learned...and to lower standards. 4) We have "standards of learning", by which secondary schools are given a low standard to teach to -- and take autonomy and boundaries away from the best teachers. 5) The average employer is looking for someone to fit into his "club". Vixra discusses this problem with arxiv, and makes it very obvious, especially in academia. But it was also true for MIT admissions (for me) and is clear in industry. I can find you plenty of job postings REQUIRING high GPAs, one employer I worked for wanted to fire their best product tester for lack of a degree. But the problems with our education/employment system need a separate thread..... ***

2011-12-18, 14:39	#22
fivemack (loop (#_fork)) Feb 2006 Cambridge, England 7²·131 Posts	As for Toom, presumably you mean http://michel.delord.free.fr/toom_russ.html It's the complaint of a man who had been an elite teacher of well-selected elites in the Soviet Union having suddenly to teach people who weren't interested in learning for its own sake, in a culture where having that attitude was accepted in a way that it wasn't among the Moscow intelligentsia. It's definitely saddening, but I agree with Toom's claim that it's a side-effect of declaring that everybody should go through tertiary education.