noob poly questions

[R.D. Silverman]

Originally Posted by jasonp

The OP didn't ask how everything worked, he asked a very specific question with a one-sentence answer.

And that one sentence answer would not help at all toward understanding how polynomial selection works. It would be totally superficial and would only reenforce obscurity.

[R.D. Silverman]

Originally Posted by R.D. Silverman

And that one sentence answer would not help at all toward understanding how polynomial selection works. It would be totally superficial and would only reenforce obscurity.

Allow me to add (IMO) that part of the job of a teacher is not merely
answering what is asked, because what is asked is often superficial
and made on the basis of inadequate understanding.

The right response is telling the student what he/she NEEDS to know,
rather than answer what the student thinks he/she WANTS to know.

This is often irritating to the student and seems harsh to outside
observers. But that's life.

Allow me to ask: (no offense). Have you ever taught at the college
level? I was a TA while at U. of C. Before we were allowed to become
TA's we were required to take a couple of training sessions on HOW to
teach. (yes, I know that a "couple" of such sessions is inadequate)
The discussion that I present above is part of what I was told during that
training.

[science_man_88]

Originally Posted by R.D. Silverman

Allowing the latter is (IMO) like allowing a layman off the street
to enter a medical convention and ask technical questions about
heart surgery because he took 'some biology' in high school.

I took some biology in high school and can do the google search human hormones and understand the condition I grew up with well enough to talk semi technically with the pediatric nephrologist I was last at ( been a while since I'm over the age where they leave you to your own device unless an emergency pop's up). BTW the spell correcter didn't recognize nephrologist as a real word.

[bsquared]

Originally Posted by R.D. Silverman

Allow me to add (IMO) that part of the job of a teacher is not merely
answering what is asked, because what is asked is often superficial
and made on the basis of inadequate understanding.

The right response is telling the student what he/she NEEDS to know,
rather than answer what the student thinks he/she WANTS to know.

This is often irritating to the student and seems harsh to outside
observers. But that's life.

Allow me to ask: (no offense). Have you ever taught at the college
level? I was a TA while at U. of C. Before we were allowed to become
TA's we were required to take a couple of training sessions on HOW to
teach. (yes, I know that a "couple" of such sessions is inadequate)
The discussion that I present above is part of what I was told during that
training.

That must have been a brilliant series of TA crash courses in teaching, to instill in you the ability to discern, in just a few printed words from a total stranger, after years away from the classroom, a comprehensive understanding of their background knowledge, and based on that, the insight to know what they NEED to be taught.

If jasonp's answer in post 15 had been the only response to the OP, I'm guessing he would still be here now, and still interested in learning about NFS, instead of... not. Kinda hard to be a teacher when no one's left to teach, no?

[R.D. Silverman]

Originally Posted by bsquared

That must have been a brilliant series of TA crash courses in teaching, to instill in you the ability to discern, in just a few printed words from a total stranger, after years away from the classroom, a comprehensive understanding of their background knowledge, and based on that, the insight to know what they NEED to be taught.

The way the question was worded gave a good indication as to the OP's
mathematical maturity. And knowing what needs to be taught in order
to understand NFS is fixed assuming that the student has the prerequisites to understand the material. And if the student does not
have the prerequisites, he is referred to the appropriate number theory
books. But the set of mathematical topics required to understand polynomial
selection is fixed.

And your sarcasm aside, I acknowledged that just a few training sessions
were inadequate to learn how to teach. I was merely conveying some
advice from that training that happened to stick with me.

[bsquared]

Originally Posted by R.D. Silverman

The way the question was worded gave a good indication as to the OP's
mathematical maturity. And knowing what needs to be taught in order
to understand NFS is fixed assuming that the student has the prerequisites to understand the material. And if the student does not
have the prerequisites, he is referred to the appropriate number theory
books. But the set of mathematical topics required to understand polynomial
selection is fixed.

Granted, you can learn something about their mathematical maturity from what they say, or write. But it's a lot more difficult to understand their aptitude for learning the subject, their motivations, goals, level of commitment, etc, without being closer to the person. I maintain that all of these things are important to understand before automatically trying to forcefeed someone NFS, or to ram in their face the fact that they are not even ready for that.

Originally Posted by R.D. Silverman

And your sarcasm aside, I acknowledged that just a few training sessions
were inadequate to learn how to teach. I was merely conveying some
advice from that training that happened to stick with me.

Understood. Just allow me to suggest that you are not the ideal person to bring a person with interest in the subject, but as yet unidentified maturity, motivation, etc., to the point where they are *engaged* in the process of learning the subject. At that point you can step in.

I'm still here in large part because I (eventually) ignored your initial rants and insults and instead turned towards others to learn want I wanted to learn. This kept my interest alive and I eventually became engaged in the subject - versed in the background material, hands dirty from code, etc. So I've slowly gained the ability to understand and learn new things from you. Of which I've done plenty over the years. But at first... not so much.

[wblipp]

Originally Posted by R.D. Silverman

Allow me to ask: (no offense). Have you ever taught at the college level? I was a TA

I think the framework of University TA is too narrow for what goes on here. I think the Situational Leadership model is more useful. There is a whole business of offering classes on this to managers, but this diagram covers the framework pretty well.

When using the "university TA" model, your petitioners are mostly at the D4 development level, and the S4 (Delegation) style is appropriate. Bob is demonstrating an S4 style when he tells the petitioner what he needs to study. But this petitioner is most likely at a D1 development level. Jason is demonstrating an S1 (directive) style in his answer to the question. When he tells people "read the code and come back with your questions" that is more of an S2 (coaching) style.

The challenge with managing D1's is finding ways to channel their enthusiasm - their clueless enthusiasm - without killing it. We aren't exactly managers here, but we aren't exactly TAs either; we need to take our insights from wherever we can get them.

Full Disclosure - a member of my family teaches corporate classes on Situations Leadership several times a year.

[R.D. Silverman]

Originally Posted by bsquared

Granted, you can learn something about their mathematical maturity from what they say, or write. But it's a lot more difficult to understand their aptitude for learning the subject, their motivations, goals, level of commitment, etc, without being closer to the person.

Agreed. But these personal matters are independent of the subject matter
that needs to be taught/studied.

I maintain that all of these things are important to understand before automatically trying to forcefeed someone NFS, or to ram in their face the fact that they are not even ready for that.

Obviously, we disagree. I especially disagree about the "forcefeed"
part. We are not forcing anyone. They come to us.

[R.D. Silverman]

Originally Posted by wblipp

I think the framework of University TA is too narrow for what goes on here. I think the Situational Leadership model is more useful. There is a whole business of offering classes on this to managers, but this diagram covers the framework pretty well.

When using the "university TA" model, your petitioners are mostly at the D4 development level, and the S4 (Delegation) style is appropriate. Bob is demonstrating an S4 style when he tells the petitioner what he needs to study. But this petitioner is most likely at a D1 development level. Jason is demonstrating an S1 (directive) style in his answer to the question. When he tells people "read the code and come back with your questions" that is more of an S2 (coaching) style.

References (to these models) please?

[wblipp]

Originally Posted by R.D. Silverman

References (to these models) please?

The materials I know best are training materials copyrighted by Ken Blanchard companies, but Google turns up a bunch of references.

[jasonp]

I was a TA in grad school for two years, and had no training in the methods of pedagogy at all. On the bad side, I tended to lecture and was a big softie. Homework took a month to get graded. But that didn't matter, because an engineering TA who speaks fluent english can write their own ticket :)

When this was the case, ~1996-1998, the EE department was just switching over to requiring a previous computer programming regimen as a prerequisite to the courses I handled. But mine were the last classes that didn't need the requirement, so you had a mix of very good hackers and completely helpless people, who thought they could get by in an engineering program just knowing how to use a calculator. How do you teach matlab to people who have only ever used a computer for email? I found out the hard way: you can't.

It was also perhaps a mistake to make me a TA for numerical methods courses; those students really got their money's worth