noob poly questions

[R.D. Silverman]

Originally Posted by sleigher

It's not that I don't want to be bothered. I am a Sr. Level Systems Architect

This claim will earn you points on the John Baez crankometer. Look it up.

Actually, why are you attacking me?

I've said it before, and I will say it again: some people seem to look
for excuses to be offended/feel atacked.

NOTHING that I said could even remotely be taken as a personal attack.
It was simply advice as to what was needed to understand NFS.

I just asked a question. How do you know I am not reviewing the code and understanding what I can and learning from that.
You don't.

Wrong. I do know. From extensive experience.
It is impossible for an amateur to understand NFS from the code alone.
It *might* be possible for someone with a Masters degree (or higher)
in number theory. For just one example, if you have never studied reduced
lattices, or what they are for, you will have no hope of understanding that
part of the code.

You first need to understand how/why QS works.

You just assume that because I ask a question that seems trivial to you, that I must be some kid trying to hack his girlfriends email right?

ho ho ho...

Now you are putting words in my mouth. I gave advice as to how best
learn about NFS based upon my having worked on (and developed theory
for) sieve algorithms for OVER 25 years. I've seen all kinds of attempts
to learn this stuff from people with highly varied background.

I see the Dunning/Kruger paper at work here. Underestimation of what
is really required, failure to understand the depth of knowledge required,
belief that expertise as a system engineer will carry over to a totally
different domain, and failure to recognize/acknowledge expert advice from
others.

Both Paul (Xilman) and I told you the same thing. Acquire a background
understanding of QS and NFS by reading descriptions of the algorithm,
THEN look at the code. Trying to learn from code/implementation only
will only obscure the algorithm.

[sleigher]

That's great that you have 25 years experience. I don't. Nor do I have 25 years to spend studying it to understanding it at the level you seem to think everyone should.

I was under the impression that's what you guys were here for. I guess I was wrong again.

My question initially was wrong anyways. I understand you guys say the value of a polynomial is generally judged from its E score. Or so I read. I wanted to know if the opposite values had any affect on that value or score. I guess it doesn't really matter now. I think I am going to stop using computers all together because I simply do not have the time to understand every piece of code written for all of the programs I use. I guess being a lay person I will just stick to pen and paper.

Thanks for all the laughs guys!

[R.D. Silverman]

Originally Posted by sleigher

That's great that you have 25 years experience. I don't. Nor do I have 25 years to spend studying it to understanding it at the level you seem to think everyone should.

How can you possibly know the "level (I) seem to think everyone should"?

You seem to think that someone can obtain a basic or minimal understanding
by reading this code. You CAN'T. This is a deep and involved subject. You
can't gain an understanding by dabbling. You have to learn the math behind it to have any HOPE of understanding it.

I was under the impression that's what you guys were here for. I guess I was wrong again.

One can't teach what is best an advanced undergrad math topic to someone
who does not know and will not acquire the necessary background. We will
help, but in our role as TEACHERS OF THIS SUBJECT, we expect the student
(you) to do the reading that we tell you is necessary. Or did you fight
this way with all of your teachers? Whether you like it or not, studying
NFS has prerequisites. We gave references as to what you should read.
You rejected this. This medium is not a blackboard, and teaching
mathematics in an interactive way is nigh to impossible.

My question initially was wrong anyways. I understand you guys say the value of a polynomial is generally judged from its E score. Or so I read. I wanted to know if the opposite values had any affect on that value or score.

This question itself is "wrong headed" and shows fundamental
misconceptions.

I guess it doesn't really matter now. I think I am going to stop using computers all together because I simply do not have the time to understand every piece of code written for all of the programs I use.

Ah yes. Get told that a particular topic requires more than casual
study of the code for understanding and instantly conclude from this
that one needs to learn every detail of every piece of code in order
to work with computers.

Terrific logic. It was *you* who said you were interested in learning
this stuff. And now you get angry because you don't like the
answers of how to do the learning. Terrific attitude. Very juvenile.

Would you expect to learn how to do heart surgery just by watching
an operation??

Don't let the door hit you on the way out.

[jasonp]

Originally Posted by sleigher

My question initially was wrong anyways. I understand you guys say the value of a polynomial is generally judged from its E score. Or so I read. I wanted to know if the opposite values had any affect on that value or score.

In general you can't conclude anything about how effective a polynomial will be by looking at simple things about its coefficients. Murphy's E-score is a messy computation involving numerical integrals, strange analytic functions and polynomial rootfinding modulo lots of small primes.

[R.D. Silverman]

Originally Posted by jasonp

In general you can't conclude anything about how effective a polynomial will be by looking at simple things about its coefficients. Murphy's E-score is a messy computation involving numerical integrals, strange analytic functions and polynomial rootfinding modulo lots of small primes.

Which is why I said that the question was based on fundamental
misconceptions.

[LaurV]

@sleigher:
Take it easy man! All of us here went through RDS's forks and knives at some point. His intentions are not bad and he does not want to hurt you, only his mouth is bitter and this is his way to try to "stimulate" you. With the age and experience you say you have, I can't believe you can get angry on some person which you don't know personally, from whatever forum. Try to see the good part in his messages. I am exactly in your situation, having a good job in programming/electronics field, family, etc, and pretending about myself that I am an "elite" programmer, having a math background and being able to understand basic factoring algorithms, but being totally dumb when it coms to NFS. This stuff I can't assimilate, there is always something what I miss. And I also went through RDS's scissors few times, but I took the positive side of his speeches, and believe me, I had a lot to learn further. He does not know you (or me), and you (or I) don't know him. So, don't take it so personal.

I want to hear about NFS. Let the fight for later.

[jasonp]

Originally Posted by R.D. Silverman

Which is why I said that the question was based on fundamental misconceptions.

Sounds like everyone agrees.

I like to think this forum has the largest concentration of factoring knowledge outside of an academic institution or intelligence agency. Why not ask noob questions here?

[R.D. Silverman]

Originally Posted by jasonp

Sounds like everyone agrees.

I like to think this forum has the largest concentration of factoring knowledge outside of an academic institution or intelligence agency. Why not ask noob questions here?

'mature in math' yet new to NFS noob questions
or 'noob to math' questions about NFS?

Allowing the latter is (IMO) like allowing a layman off the street
to enter a medical convention and ask technical questions about
heart surgery because he took 'some biology' in high school.

[R.D. Silverman]

Originally Posted by LaurV

@sleigher:
Take it easy man! All of us here went through RDS's forks and knives at some point. His intentions are not bad and he does not want to hurt you, only his mouth is bitter and this is his way to try to "stimulate" you. With the age and experience you say you have, I can't believe you can get angry on some person which you don't know personally, from whatever forum. Try to see the good part in his messages. I am exactly in your situation, having a good job in programming/electronics field, family, etc, and pretending about myself that I am an "elite" programmer, having a math background and being able to understand basic factoring algorithms, but being totally dumb when it coms to NFS. This stuff I can't assimilate, there is always something what I miss. And I also went through RDS's scissors few times, but I took the positive side of his speeches, and believe me, I had a lot to learn further. He does not know you (or me), and you (or I) don't know him. So, don't take it so personal.

I want to hear about NFS. Let the fight for later.

Imagine a lay person walking into a medical convention
and trying to ask technical questions about heart surgery
because he studied biology in high school. He can't even
identify the nerve bundles connected to the heart, but
he wants to understand heart surgery.



The math behind NFS is fairly deep and very broad. Why
do people get angry when we tell them that they can't learn how it works
from the code; that they actually have to study a LOT of math
to gain an understanding? A noob walking in here and asking
about NFS is like the layman above asking about heart surgery.

I said NOTHING personal in ANY of my comments. Yet people
still seem to take offense where none was intended. Could it
be that they just don't like the answer that there is an awful
lot to learn and they can't understand it by just 'dabbling'??

[wblipp]

Originally Posted by R.D. Silverman

Could it be that they just don't like the answer that there is an awful lot to learn and they can't understand it by just 'dabbling'??

It could be. One way to test that hypothesis would be to compare the reactions you inspire in newbies to the reactions that other people inspire. If everybody generates irritation and anger, then it is probably mostly the fault of the newbies.

[jasonp]

Originally Posted by R.D. Silverman

Allowing the latter is (IMO) like allowing a layman off the street
to enter a medical convention and ask technical questions about
heart surgery because he took 'some biology' in high school.

The OP didn't ask how everything worked, he asked a very specific question with a one-sentence answer. Helping out took only slightly more effort than your exhortation to use google. I do get plenty of people asking me to do a lot of work to help them understand stuff, and most of them never come back if you ask in return that they look at the code and be more specific. That also takes only a minute.

And if you've ever been to a convention, then you've forgotten that the only fun you get to have is showing off to amateurs :)