On the nature of workplace harassment

[R.D. Silverman]

Originally Posted by retina

Sounds like that encourages inbreeding. Not a good thing for any type of evolving species. Perhaps these groups are going to die out due to inability to adapt to changing external conditions.Except for the birth control thing, this would appear to be a more successful way to promote diversity in a species.

This is also an interesting idea: Religion to become 'extinct' in nine nations

I am, at this moment dealing with a problem of religious harassment at
work.

A co-worker posted a blatantly religious essay outside his office.

My company takes harassment seriously. One part of the definition
of "religious harassment", is "forcing or pushing your religion on others".

I wrote a polite note on this posted essay simply saying that
"religion belongs in church, not in the workplace".

The poster did not get the hint. Instead, he posted another sign
accusing ME of religious bigotry and harassment.

The right to practice your religion does not extend to pushing it at
others in the workplace. Calling someone else a religious bigot and
accusing them of harrasment simply because they asked you to stop
pushing is ridiculous. But it is typical of religious zealots. They think
they can practice their religion anytime, and anyplace, and that someone
asking them to stop doing so constitutes bigotry.

You have the right to swing your fist. But that right ends at my nose.
You have the right to practice your religion. But that right ends when
your pushing your religion becomes deleterious to others.

I've had to escalate this to out HR department. They do agree that
company policy says that pushing religion at others constitutes
harassment, and not the other way around.

[jyb]

Originally Posted by R.D. Silverman

I am, at this moment dealing with a problem of religious harassment at
work.

A co-worker posted a blatantly religious essay outside his office.

My company takes harassment seriously. One part of the definition
of "religious harassment", is "forcing or pushing your religion on others".

I wrote a polite note on this posted essay simply saying that
"religion belongs in church, not in the workplace".

The poster did not get the hint. Instead, he posted another sign
accusing ME of religious bigotry and harassment.

The right to practice your religion does not extend to pushing it at
others in the workplace. Calling someone else a religious bigot and
accusing them of harrasment simply because they asked you to stop
pushing is ridiculous. But it is typical of religious zealots. They think
they can practice their religion anytime, and anyplace, and that someone
asking them to stop doing so constitutes bigotry.

You have the right to swing your fist. But that right ends at my nose.
You have the right to practice your religion. But that right ends when
your pushing your religion becomes deleterious to others.

I've had to escalate this to out HR department. They do agree that
company policy says that pushing religion at others constitutes
harassment, and not the other way around.

Hmm, this sounds like it could be the subject of an interesting debate. FWIW, I agree with all the generalities you make above. But there's a key question that this specific example raises (and I would imagine that your HR dept.'s ultimate decision will hinge on this question): does posting a "blatantly religious" essay outside one's office constitute "pushing your religion on others"?

Unfortunately, I don't think this question is particularly susceptible to generalization. That is, my own take is that it really depends on what's being said in your co-worker's essay. If it goes on about how his religion is the one true way, and that everybody should acknowledge that, and that those who don't will suffer all kinds of bad consequences, then I think you can make a pretty good case that he's trying to push his religion on others. OTOH, if it tells some feel-good story about his religion and why it makes him happy, then that doesn't sound like pushing it on others to me; it sounds more like simply making a public display of something that he considers a part of his life. And I would call both versions "blatantly religious".

Saying that public displays of this sort always constitute "pushing your religion on others" doesn't really feel right to me. Consider a Jewish man who wears a yarmulke in his daily life. Can you really claim that he's pushing his religion on anyone? And would you tell him that "religion belongs in [temple], not in the workplace"? What about someone wearing a shirt that says "Jesus is your Lord"? That seems pretty different to me.

I.e. IMO whether or not you're being harassed* depends on what the essay actually says.

* Courts (and HR depts.) have taken a fairly broad view of what constitutes harassment. In particular, it need not be specifically directed at an individual. E.g. women have successfully claimed they were being sexually harassed by their male colleagues putting up pictures of naked women and the like. So I'm not bothering to argue the question of whether you can really claim you're being harassed when there's nothing that targets you specifically.

(Mods: please feel free to move this to a more appropriate thread.)

[R.D. Silverman]

Originally Posted by jyb

Hmm, this sounds like it could be the subject of an interesting debate. FWIW, I agree with all the generalities you make above. But there's a key question that this specific example raises (and I would imagine that your HR dept.'s ultimate decision will hinge on this question): does posting a "blatantly religious" essay outside one's office constitute "pushing your religion on others"?

Unfortunately, I don't think this question is particularly susceptible to generalization. That is, my own take is that it really depends on what's being said in your co-worker's essay. If it goes on about how his religion is the one true way, and that everybody should acknowledge that, and that those who don't will suffer all kinds of bad consequences, then I think you can make a pretty good case that he's trying to push his religion on others. OTOH, if it tells some feel-good story about his religion and why it makes him happy, then that doesn't sound like pushing it on others to me; it sounds more like simply making a public display of something that he considers a part of his life. And I would call both versions "blatantly religious".

Saying that public displays of this sort always constitute "pushing your religion on others" doesn't really feel right to me. Consider a Jewish man who wears a yarmulke in his daily life. Can you really claim that he's pushing his religion on anyone? And would you tell him that "religion belongs in [temple], not in the workplace"? What about someone wearing a shirt that says "Jesus is your Lord"? That seems pretty different to me.

I.e. IMO whether or not you're being harassed* depends on what the essay actually says.

* Courts (and HR depts.) have taken a fairly broad view of what constitutes harassment. In particular, it need not be specifically directed at an individual. E.g. women have successfully claimed they were being sexually harassed by their male colleagues putting up pictures of naked women and the like. So I'm not bothering to argue the question of whether you can really claim you're being harassed when there's nothing that targets you specifically.

(Mods: please feel free to move this to a more appropriate thread.)

Didn't Jesus say something critical of people who needed to pray in
public???

Personally I think that religious garb such as yarmulkes, religious jewelry (e.g. crosses), etc. do not belong in the workplace. OTOH, wearing a yarmulke
(or turban etc. )can be done for cultural reasons rather than religious.

However, accusing me of harrassment and bigotry for suggesting that
religion belonged in church (i.e. my pushing back at the religious essay)
is clearly crazy.

[rogue]

Originally Posted by R.D. Silverman

However, accusing me of harrassment and bigotry for suggesting that
religion belonged in church (i.e. my pushing back at the religious essay)
is clearly crazy.

I don't agree. Would you have a problem with someone silently praying before a meal in the cafeteria or at their desk? Would you have a problem with two open-minded people of different faiths discussing their beliefs in the hallway?

I'm uncertain where the line should be drawn. I strongly dislike the idea of someone evangelizing in the office, but I think that there are valid cases for people to practice their faith or talk about their faith without infringing on other's rights.

[R.D. Silverman]

Originally Posted by rogue

I don't agree. Would you have a problem with someone silently praying before a meal in the cafeteria or at their desk?

How would I know that they are praying? If they are doing so in such a
way that makes it clear that they are praying, then yes I have a problem.

Would you have a problem with two open-minded people of different faiths discussing their beliefs in the hallway?

Yes. Just as I would have if two open minded men were discussing
their previous nights' sexual exploits. And I suspect that women would
treat the latter as harassment.

The discussion does not need to be aimed at anyone. Just having it
when someone else is nearby can constitute harassment.

Some topics do not belong in the workplace.

I'm uncertain where the line should be drawn. I strongly dislike the idea of someone evangelizing in the office, but I think that there are valid cases for people to practice their faith or talk about their faith without infringing on other's rights.

Surely. As long as noone else who might be offended is within hearing
distance. But just as posting nude pictures is harassment even if
normally out of site, just the fact that someone might observe
it is defined as harassment.

[jyb]

Originally Posted by R.D. Silverman

Didn't Jesus say something critical of people who needed to pray in
public???

I wouldn't know.

Originally Posted by R.D. Silverman

Personally I think that religious garb such as yarmulkes, religious jewelry (e.g. crosses), etc. do not belong in the workplace. OTOH, wearing a yarmulke
(or turban etc. )can be done for cultural reasons rather than religious.

Really? That's an odd distinction. Why are religious reasons clearly inappropriate, while cultural reasons are okay? Aren't both of them just aspects of people's persona? Isn't religion just one aspect of culture?

And wearing a (tasteful) cross necklace is inappropriate in the workplace? Really? If an atheist wore one just because he liked the way it looked, would that be okay? Why, what's the difference? And what about wedding rings? Should those people who think that wedding rings represent a religious sacrament not be allowed to wear them, while those who wear them for cultural/personal reasons are okay?

Originally Posted by R.D. Silverman

However, accusing me of harrassment and bigotry for suggesting that
religion belonged in church (i.e. my pushing back at the religious essay)
is clearly crazy.

No, I don't think it necessarily is. It depends on how absolutist you were being (or he thought you were being). If you really think that non-religious personal expression (e.g. wearing an "I love to hunt" t-shirt) is okay in the workplace, while religious personal expression (e.g. wearing an "I love Buddha" t-shirt) never is, then accusing you of bigotry doesn't sound crazy to me. It sounds debatable, maybe, but not crazy.

[R.D. Silverman]

Originally Posted by jyb

I wouldn't know.



Really? That's an odd distinction. Why are religious reasons clearly inappropriate, while cultural reasons are okay?

Because THE LAW SAYS SO.

[xilman]

Originally Posted by R.D. Silverman

Because THE LAW SAYS SO.

Fair enough.

Does THE LAW (your caps) have a good definition of how to decide the difference between religion and culture in practice?

FWIW, I wish to state that I am not now and have never been a promoter of any widely recognized religion.

These days I'm a Pastafarian and that will be my answer to the (IMO impertinent) question on the up-coming UK census. At the previous census ten years ago I registered myself as a Jedi. I have since then been touched by His Noodly Appendage.

Ramen,

Paul

[CRGreathouse]

Originally Posted by R.D. Silverman

Because THE LAW SAYS SO.

Which?

(honest question)

[science_man_88]

Originally Posted by CRGreathouse

Which?

(honest question)

I was wondering somewhat as well I found this:

"Everyone has the right to freedom of thought, conscience and religion; this right includes freedom to change his religion or belief, and freedom, either alone or in community with others and in public or private, to manifest his religion or belief in teaching, practice, worship and observance." Article 18 of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights

on http://www.religioustolerance.org/lawmenu.htm

[R.D. Silverman]

Originally Posted by CRGreathouse

Which?

(honest question)

I don't know whether it is U.S. or just our state.

We are required to take annual ethics training. Two courses
are required and we get to select from a variety of topics.

Several weeks ago I took workplace harassment as one of my courses.
It discussed which workplace topics were off limits as defined by law,
but did not state which law.