custom GIMPS hardware: how fast and how much?

ixfd64 · 2011-03-02, 17:19

Suppose a very generous person decided to hire a company to design a custom microchip for the purpose of finding Mersenne primes, and that money is not an issue.

How fast could such a chip be, and how much would it cost to make one? Just curious.

bsquared · 2011-03-02, 19:43

Here's a rough guess based on nothing other than some past experience with state of the art ASIC flows, digital logic development cycles and toolchains, and FFT algorithms in general:

One to ten million dollars and a man year or two of labor for ~10-100x speedup vs. modern general purpose CPUs.

An FPGA solution would probably be cheaper (10 - 100k + 0.5 to 1 man years of labor) for maybe a 10-20x speedup.

ASIC solutions are generally only appropriate if
a) you are going to build and sell millions of them
or
b) you really really really need the size/weight/power reduction or performance improvement (i.e., it is mission critical)

jasonp · 2011-03-02, 20:17

The Hardware forum has a sticky that goes into a lot of the details of the answers to this question.

Christenson · 2011-03-05, 04:03

I think the conclusion has been that it is cheaper and easier to put together 10PCs than to get an FPGA flow working well, or get a GPU to work at the problem. Memory bandwidth is a major issue.
Me, I'd want to look at what would happen if we notice that what mprime does is very much bound by the CPU<-->memory bandwidth, and built a PCI (or other favorite bus) coprocessor card (wait! is that a GPU?) with basically the CPU, a memory slot, and a PCI interface only. (and of course, a heatsink and a way to remove lots of heat).
Architecturally, I'd want to build a machine that could carry out one step of an LL test, and then figure out how to keep it fed (for example, on each clock, feed in the inputs of a new LL step and remove the outputs of a just-completed LL step. The decision as to which LL step would be up to a general-purpose machine. Given all the steps (20-30) involved in a single FFT for an LL step, I would think that I might have that many different LL steps simultaneously in progress.

jasonp · 2011-03-05, 16:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by Christenson

Me, I'd want to look at what would happen if we notice that what mprime does is very much bound by the CPU<-->memory bandwidth, and built a PCI (or other favorite bus) coprocessor card (wait! is that a GPU?) with basically the CPU, a memory slot, and a PCI interface only. (and of course, a heatsink and a way to remove lots of heat).

This is essentially what a GPU is, except that ATI and Nvidia spend billions of dollars building nice ones, which we can't do. i.e. there's no way I'd be able to build a DDR memory controller in an FPGA that can run as fast or as effectively as one of the multiple memory controllers in a GPU.

I've been wondering recently if it would be worthwhile to build a memory controller optimized for high *address* bandwidth to many banks of DRAM, rather than the traditional optimization for high *data* bandwidth. That might help achieve very high GUPS (giga-updates-per-second) rather than GBPS, and the former is a critical component of fast NFS sieving and linear algebra.

Uncwilly · 2011-03-05, 18:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by jasonp

I've been wondering recently if it would be worthwhile to build a memory controller optimized for high *address* bandwidth to many banks of DRAM, rather than the traditional optimization for high *data* bandwidth. That might help achieve very high GUPS (giga-updates-per-second) rather than GBPS, and the former is a critical component of fast NFS sieving and linear algebra.

The IBM 5162 (XT 286) running at 6Mhz could out perform the IBM 5170 (AT) running at 8 MHz because memory related issues. So, your idea of using memory to speed the machine does have a real world precedent.

ixfd64 · 2011-03-05, 19:24

Argh, I meant to post this in the Hardware forum. Could a mod please move it there?

Thanks.

xilman · 2011-03-05, 19:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by ixfd64

Argh, I meant to post this in the Hardware forum. Could a mod please move it there?

Thanks.

Done.

Paul

ixfd64 · 2011-03-05, 20:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by xilman

Done.

Paul

Thanks!

By the way, I agree with Christenson regarding the memory bottleneck. I think someone here mentioned that his Tesla C2050 card was only performing at about 25% of the expected throughput, and the cause was found to be the limited memory bandwith.

Christenson · 2011-03-08, 01:39

jasonp...you missed that huge, silly, sh*t-eating grin on my face when I said GPU!....maybe we could get an open SATA chipset to feed the inputs to the FPGAs for LL, or maybe PCI-e to serialize for us. Easier than building DDR3 controllers. Sieving work, we need to look at how to optimize that "worst" case, completely (pseudo-)random memory access, scattered all over a gig or more of memory. Such a bus would need to be deep, that is, lots of memory modules, each of which can start a write and grab the data in one clock, but might need many clocks (and therefore many parallel modules) to commit the data. To sell it, find a non-sieving application, like non-colliding writes to a database, that could use similar performance.
Wonder what it would cost to get Nvidia to let us use that billion dollar investment in bus controllers to front end the kind of dedicated logic arrays that would be useful for mersenne work?

chris2be8 · 2011-03-08, 17:23

Would it be possible to build a system with ~1Gb of level 3 (or 2) cache? If so how fast would it be for sieving and much would it cost? That's probably the simplest way to speed up main memory.

Chris K

2011-03-02, 17:19	#1
ixfd64 Bemusing Prompter "Danny" Dec 2002 California 2³×313 Posts	custom GIMPS hardware: how fast and how much? Suppose a very generous person decided to hire a company to design a custom microchip for the purpose of finding Mersenne primes, and that money is not an issue. How fast could such a chip be, and how much would it cost to make one? Just curious.

Similar Threads
Thread	Thread Starter	Forum	Replies	Last Post
Newbie question about current users hardware running GIMPS	JonRussell	Hardware	42	2017-09-13 17:10
Do normal adults give themselves an allowance? (...to fast or not to fast - there is no question!)	jasong	jasong	35	2016-12-11 00:57
CUDALucas not fast on my slow hardware	saeres	GPU Computing	37	2015-11-01 17:32
Custom login?	Rodrigo	PrimeNet	10	2014-02-22 16:53
Optimal Hardware for bare GIMPS client	Angular	Hardware	25	2003-03-04 15:05

2011-03-02, 19:43	#2
bsquared "Ben" Feb 2007 3×5×251 Posts	Here's a rough guess based on nothing other than some past experience with state of the art ASIC flows, digital logic development cycles and toolchains, and FFT algorithms in general: One to ten million dollars and a man year or two of labor for ~10-100x speedup vs. modern general purpose CPUs. An FPGA solution would probably be cheaper (10 - 100k + 0.5 to 1 man years of labor) for maybe a 10-20x speedup. ASIC solutions are generally only appropriate if a) you are going to build and sell millions of them or b) you really really really need the size/weight/power reduction or performance improvement (i.e., it is mission critical)

2011-03-02, 20:17	#3
jasonp Tribal Bullet Oct 2004 5×23×31 Posts	The Hardware forum has a sticky that goes into a lot of the details of the answers to this question.

2011-03-05, 04:03	#4
Christenson Dec 2010 Monticello 3403₈ Posts	I think the conclusion has been that it is cheaper and easier to put together 10PCs than to get an FPGA flow working well, or get a GPU to work at the problem. Memory bandwidth is a major issue. Me, I'd want to look at what would happen if we notice that what mprime does is very much bound by the CPU<-->memory bandwidth, and built a PCI (or other favorite bus) coprocessor card (wait! is that a GPU?) with basically the CPU, a memory slot, and a PCI interface only. (and of course, a heatsink and a way to remove lots of heat). Architecturally, I'd want to build a machine that could carry out one step of an LL test, and then figure out how to keep it fed (for example, on each clock, feed in the inputs of a new LL step and remove the outputs of a just-completed LL step. The decision as to which LL step would be up to a general-purpose machine. Given all the steps (20-30) involved in a single FFT for an LL step, I would think that I might have that many different LL steps simultaneously in progress.

2011-03-05, 19:24	#7
ixfd64 Bemusing Prompter "Danny" Dec 2002 California 2³·313 Posts	Argh, I meant to post this in the Hardware forum. Could a mod please move it there? Thanks.

2011-03-08, 01:39	#10
Christenson Dec 2010 Monticello 3403₈ Posts	jasonp...you missed that huge, silly, sh*t-eating grin on my face when I said GPU!....maybe we could get an open SATA chipset to feed the inputs to the FPGAs for LL, or maybe PCI-e to serialize for us. Easier than building DDR3 controllers. Sieving work, we need to look at how to optimize that "worst" case, completely (pseudo-)random memory access, scattered all over a gig or more of memory. Such a bus would need to be deep, that is, lots of memory modules, each of which can start a write and grab the data in one clock, but might need many clocks (and therefore many parallel modules) to commit the data. To sell it, find a non-sieving application, like non-colliding writes to a database, that could use similar performance. Wonder what it would cost to get Nvidia to let us use that billion dollar investment in bus controllers to front end the kind of dedicated logic arrays that would be useful for mersenne work?

2011-03-08, 17:23	#11
chris2be8 Sep 2009 5×17×29 Posts	Would it be possible to build a system with ~1Gb of level 3 (or 2) cache? If so how fast would it be for sieving and much would it cost? That's probably the simplest way to speed up main memory. Chris K