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#595 |
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Aug 2003
Snicker, AL
7·137 Posts |
Shoes are dropping all over the EU today with announcements that Merkel and Sarkozy want up to 60% shaved off Greek debts. In return, affected banks will receive $150 Billion in protection money. (Yes, I know it is mixing metaphors, but it is somehow apropos) Long story short, they still need to boost the EFSF to at least 3 Trillion just to stay ahead of the curve with Italy and Spain. Any way you slice or dice this, the result is the same. The EU will continue to be pressured so long as fiscally weak members remain in the union. That means ongoing intervention by stronger economies.
I noted that the offer of support to the banks was extended to EU banks. Wonder what they plan on doing for banks outside the EU that hold Greek debt? DarJones |
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#596 | ||
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∂2ω=0
Sep 2002
República de California
265778 Posts |
Mish on the "There will be no leveraged EFSF - Oh wait, there will be!" Bank-bailout-Greek-haircut soap opera season-ending (or maybe not) cliffhanger episode:
Good News for Bears: Torture by Rumor Ends Quote:
[Edit: Mish has an update on the CDS issue - Note that it's not the ratings agencies which have say here, but an outfit known as the International Swaps & Derivatives Association. That makes more sense, because it means "one stop shopping" as far as the EU FinMins having to threaten/bribe/cajole someone into declaring that a 50% haircut on bonds is a "voluntary restructuring" with the blessing of the bondholders.] Also, Germany`s Merkel clearly, blatantly flat-out lied to the German parliament just a few weeks ago when she promised "there will be no leveraging of the EFSF". Despite this the parliament overwhelmingly voted to allow leveraging of the EFSF, without even demanding details as to how this will accomplished. There are several different Ponzi-financial proposals floating around for how to do this, one is startlingly reminiscent of the lunacy that was going on during the recent housing/debt bubble, involving creative financial engineering of stuffing crap debt instruments into a structured-financial vehicle, giving the whole thing a bogus top-notch ratings based on the perhaps 1% of quality loans inside it, selling it to some poor slobsucker investors, and using the thus-generated capital to make more bad loans. Lather, rinse, repeat. Yeah, that all ended really well, too. Barry Ritholtz had a funny post yesterday describing market reaction to the rumors of newsishness regarding a proposed accord for a possible hypothetical solution discussion round for fixing Europe all up, and stuff: Rally! Ugly Fade! Reversal Wednesday! Quote:
Last fiddled with by ewmayer on 2011-10-27 at 21:17 |
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#597 |
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Aug 2002
Termonfeckin, IE
22×691 Posts |
Bears got killed today. And look at that Euro go. 1.4247 today's high. Looks like Barry's original breakout thesis was right.
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#598 | ||
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Oct 2004
Austria
2×17×73 Posts |
Quote:
A haircut of 100 billion €uros: how much is the reduction of annual debt service? How much is this in % of the Greek GDP? For me it looks like Greek economy is spiraling down faster than the government can set austerity measures - and each austerity measure pushes economy further down. So I think that Greek real economy (i.e. economy producing real goods and not just financial products) desperately needs some funding (e.g. from ESEF?) for stabilization - otherwise Greece will need another "haircut" within a few years. |
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#599 |
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Aug 2003
Snicker, AL
11101111112 Posts |
The fundamentals have not changed. This party will end when reality sets back in. As Andi noted re Greece, There is a real economy that produces goods and services, a government economy that is a burden on the real economy, and a financial economy that moves money around and produces not much of anything. So far they have poured money into the government and financial. That is a waste in the end, it does not go where it is needed.
If you scan all the buzz from Europe, the significant issue is that they are pushing hard to stabilize Italy and Spain. Propping up Greece may be necessary, but it is misdirection because Greece is not large enough to destabilize the EU alone. Sarkozy may complain that Greece should have never been admitted to the EU, but can he make a statement like that about Italy? Have you ever seen anything done by a government that really worked like it is supposed to? Do you realistically expect that propping up Greece is going to achieve the intended result? DarJones Last fiddled with by Fusion_power on 2011-10-28 at 18:26 |
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#600 | |
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Oct 2004
Austria
2×17×73 Posts |
Quote:
Italy: According to the Eurozone, yes (not "never", but it has been admitted to the Euro a little bit to early), according to EU no. Re: propping up Greece: No, I don't expect this - unless they (EU, ESEF) give money to the real economy. Otherwise Greek economy will continue spiraling down while Greek government is struggling to set austerity measures at least as fast as economy crashes... it's a vicious circle. I think the system is ill in several points (list is not exhaustive): * banks (and other investment companies) are too mighty - there are too many system-relevant banks which are doing highly speculative stuff. (I don't suggest smashing the banks into pieces - I rather suggest impeding speculation.) * doing highly speculative stuff is waaaaay tooooooooooooo easy - therefore money goes to stock markets instead of real economy. (In german there is the word "Dienstmädchen-Hausse" (literally translated "hausmaid's hausse", what is the correct translation?) when everybody - even hausmaids - are speculating on stock markets. If "everyone" is taking out loans and speculating with the borrowed money, that's even worse...) * Maastricht-criteria are too loose. I think making new debt as high as 3% of GDP every year WILL eventually lead into financial desaster - even for nations which are currently (or have been until recently) rated with AAA. Last fiddled with by Andi47 on 2011-10-28 at 20:14 |
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#601 |
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Dec 2010
Monticello
70316 Posts |
I don't think there's a proper English translation for "Housemaid's market" without an explanation, though "House of cards" might work....
The question is how to ensure that the various financial markets are actually lending money to the "real" economy...that is their non-parasitic purpose. Stocks exist so projects larger than one man can finance can be carried out, with real benefits to the real economy. We are at a level of speculation not seen since 1929, or maybe the dutch Tulip boom. There are also some real negatives to borrowing money on the stock market...think of the slavery to quarterly reports, leading lots of companies to forego long-term projects with much larger real gains. Not that borrowing money from venture capital is any better.... Last fiddled with by Christenson on 2011-10-29 at 02:31 |
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#602 | |
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Oct 2004
Austria
2×17×73 Posts |
Quote:
I think it needs a bit of regulation - and a (if possible worldwide!) tax on financial transaction: There are (to my eyes dangerous) highly speculative papers "promising" obscenely high yields, but bearing the risk of really bad loss. And to me it seems that stock traders are (or have been) inventing derivatives of derivatives of derivatives... to make even more money at the stock exchange. I mean ... when I just click into a homepage dealing with stocks: what the *peep* are things like (open end) knock out certificates, sprint certificates and such? When it is too easy to speculate at the stock markets for high yields (but also high risks), this might lead to money going to stock markets (and bubble away) while the real economy is struggling to get out of recession. </laymans thoughts> |
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#603 | |
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"Richard B. Woods"
Aug 2002
Wisconsin USA
22·3·641 Posts |
Quote:
http://www.investmentmoats.com/stock...near-to-burst/ http://arabnews.com/saudiarabia/article508532.ece Last fiddled with by cheesehead on 2011-10-30 at 21:46 |
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#604 |
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∂2ω=0
Sep 2002
República de California
19·613 Posts |
Not a literal translation, but the analogous phrase I've heard in English for when you know you're in a speculative bubble is "When the shoeshine boy [cabdriver] is giving you stock market tips."
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#605 | |
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Aug 2003
Snicker, AL
7·137 Posts |
We have a first today.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/15519124 Quote:
Anyone want to speculate who will be next? Who's on first? no, Whats on first. Who's on second. do you remember the short stop? DarJones |
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