Is there a God?

[davar55]

Originally Posted by Primeinator

I do not know why the human tendency is to view issues as just black and white- many issues have a gray area (or whatever color you want to call it).
Evolution vs Creationism happens to be a great example. For instance, evolution is a proven scientific fact. BUT, when people use this word, they often forget that there are two types of evolution- macro and micro. Macro evolution indicates that people came from single-celled organisms billions of years ago. Microevolution concerns itself more with natural selection (the giraffe with the taller neck lives because it can reach more food- thus giraffes have tall necks). I am a firm believer of microevolution, but not so much for macroevolution, though there is evidence for this, I believe that if humans did originate from primitive life, it was by God's design. So although I am Christian, I do believe in evolution to a degree. Creation and Evolution do not have to be oppositional. Further, I would like to address your comment, Tony. Not everything suggests the idea of God is stupid. Science and religion have long been opposing forces, but leading research in areas like String Theory suggest a divine power of some nature. Even the laws of physics (matter cannot be created nor destroyed) suggests this. Where did all the "stuff" for the big bang originate? As energy? Well, energy is just another form of matter- they are exchangeable currencies.

Science and faith are indeed opposites and mutually exclusive.

There is no god and never was.

The Big Bang is Creationism in disguise.

If you're interested in cosmology, see the Puzzles sub-forum,
in particular the thread Elemental Puzzle.

[davar55]

Originally Posted by T.Rex

The problem is that it is quite impossible for you to change your mind because that would mean disagreeing with all that you thought true since ages. That would be terrible for you: accept to say that everything you were thinking about was wrong. Your first enemy is yourself. But it is not really your fault: you are a victim. First try psychotherapy.

You only have to accept one thing: you'll die one day and your spirit, your mind, whatever you call it, will totally, definitely disappear, vanish, with no hope.
When this is clear for you, everything will be clear for you. Just try.

Accepting one' eventual death as an absolute is NOT conducive to
good mental health or human success.

But religion is not a solution.

[davar55]

Originally Posted by T.Rex

There is no way to discuss with people believing in God: you are not logical, you are crazy. It is a complete loss of time.

You, Christians from the USA are the same than the muslim guys who did the "September, 11". You could kill because you think there is a God. In fact, you killed: about 19 millions of Indians of North America were killed because you thought that an Indian is not a man.

My wife died of a cancer. I was with her, during 5 months, till the end. I know what death means. Now, she's gone. No hope for after-life. I will not meet her in any place again because she is no more: she's completely gone, disappeared, vanished. But life must continue, because there are still beauty and happiness around me.

You hate Evolution because you cannot accept the fact that we are there by chance. You are like a baby asking for your mother.
Read about Darwin: why he stopped believing in God, why he didn't publish his book because he was so deeply inloved with his wife, which was afraid that they could not be inloved for ever if God did not exist. He published his book.

We agree that religion, any and all religion, is the problem.

But not all people who believe in a religion. Some are OK.

[davar55]

Originally Posted by Mini-Geek

1. Only the very highest estimates put the number of Indians prior to European exploration at near 19 million.
2. Many of the Indians died from smallpox carried over by the Europeans, not genocide. "It is thought that between 75 to 90 percent of all Indian deaths resulted from [diseases]." (src: first link below)
3. I can find nothing saying that anyone thought Indians weren't people. Exactly how the killing and taking of land were justified in the minds of early settlers, I don't know.
4. Some Indians sided with the colonies in the revolutionary war. Clearly they would not do this if they felt that they were massacred like subhumans that must be driven out to make room for people.
sources:
http://hnn.us/articles/7302.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Native_..._United_States

How are you so sure?

I assume you're referring to physical life and death. Of course I know what life and death are.

I accept that there is an infinitesimal chance that we and this whole universe "just happened", but you're correct in saying that I don't think that it did. What evidence is there that it did instead of being created? How did the universe come into existence? (and don't just say, "the Big Bang, of course", where did the substance for the big bang come from?)

I'm not afraid of dying. Are you?
Even if I'm wrong, and when I die I never again wake up, I've lost nothing except being seen as foolish by other humans during my life. I won't even know that I was wrong. But that's not the point, because I know that I am right.

I don't really expect you to answer me since you say, "There is no way to discuss with a fool." which you have bluntly labeled me and every religious person.

Even a religious person can have good values.

Though supernatural ideas don't really exist in reality.

[retina]

Well since this thread has been opened up again:

Originally Posted by jasong

...
There IS a God and I DON'T believe in Him.

Ouch, the penalties for this are horrendous, you assume there isn't a God and suffer in the worst possible way.

This assumes a lot. It assumes one's state of belief is actually tracked by god and that god will take negative action based upon that. Kind of puts god in the box of "mean teenage boy that only tolerates things that go his own way".

Originally Posted by jasong

There IS a God and I DO believe in Him

Choirs of Angels, huge mansions and limitless food, as well as a job that you enjoy and look forward to.(no lie, I just forget where it's written.)
...

Also assume a lot. Assumes that your chosen book is correct in its descriptions and allusions. What if your book is the wrong one? OMG, you believe in the wrong thing, now you go to hel... umm ... somewhere else I guess, maybe nowhere. Who knows?

[rogue]

Originally Posted by davar55

Science and faith are indeed opposites and mutually exclusive.

That depends upon what you mean by "faith". If you "faith in god", then yes, but I think that people often have "faith in medicine" or "faith in medical treatment". For example, if a particular treatment is successful 90% of the time (says science), then someone getting that treatment expects (says faith) it to work for them (in the 90%).

[davar55]

Originally Posted by rogue

That depends upon what you mean by "faith". If you "faith in god", then yes, but I think that people often have "faith in medicine" or "faith in medical treatment". For example, if a particular treatment is successful 90% of the time (says science), then someone getting that treatment expects (says faith) it to work for them (in the 90%).

Well, faith in god is obviously misguided if there is no god.

Faith in medicine is the same as confidence in science and a
certain degree of confidence in the character of doctors.

Not all doctors deserve that, do they?

So faith is the wrong word here too.

Faith means based on feelings or subjectivism or mysticism,
as opposed to on the basis of reason.

[rogue]

Originally Posted by davar55

Well, faith in god is obviously misguided if there is no god.

Faith in medicine is the same as confidence in science and a
certain degree of confidence in the character of doctors.

Not all doctors deserve that, do they?

So faith is the wrong word here too.

Faith means based on feelings or subjectivism or mysticism,
as opposed to on the basis of reason.

I argue that the line between faith and reason isn't always clear. How does on categorize instinct? Instinct can be based on both objective and subjective thinking.

[firejuggler]

there is no God once I get to the restroom

[davar55]

Originally Posted by MooooMoo

No, there are two more possibilities:

- There is a God(s) and I don't know whether he/she/it/they exist
- There isn't a God(s) and I don't know whether he/she/it/they exist

The issue isn't black and white, there are people who are neither atheists nor believers (I'm one of them). In this case, there isn't enough evidence to decide one way or another. It's similar to asking whether there is any life outside Earth. We haven't been contacted by any aliens and we haven't seen any evidence of extraterristrial life, but there may be planets where bacteria, insects, or even intelligent species live.

Getting back on the topic of evolution/intelligent design, I'll repost my earlier message since it was posted in the wrong thread a few weeks ago.

-------------------------------------
"If an intelligent designer lived on Earth, people would break his windows"

If an intelligent designer did exist, why did he/she/it give humans so many bad characteristics? Why can't people regrow limbs like salamanders? Why can't people fly like birds? Why aren't people as strong as bears? Why can't we swim as fast as sharks or run as fast as horses and cheetahs? Why do we have useless structures like appendices?

You could say that the intelligent designer gave us really good brains, but we're finding out that even our intelligence isn't that great. Computers are beating us at finding prime numbers, playing chess, and recalling facts. Apes, gorillas, and chimps know how to make basic tools and learn sign language, and some of them are even better than college students at memory tests:
http://cbs5.com/health/chimps.memory....2.601356.html
Also, it took us thousands of years for our intelligence to develop cars, TVs, cell phones, air conditioning, and other modern conveniences. For most of human history, our living standards were at best only a bit above that of most animals.

So, are you struggling to outrun a lion? Are you having difficulty finding the result of (296142*40895) ^ 10? If so, you can blame your intelligent designer for that.
--------------------------------------------------

Very eloquent.

[davar55]

Originally Posted by jasong

We don't exist so that we can do awesome things, we exist to glorify God. Would your parents have tried to conceive you if they thought that you would dishonor and disrespect them? No, your parents had you because they wanted to pass on their values, replicate what makes them who they are.

There are people who are the best in their field, rich, famous, and are miserable. On the other side there are people that have nothing, they're in abject poverty, barely scraping by, that think God is the most awesome thing there is.

And then there's me, at the age of 17 I began hallucinating. I thought the TV was talking to me, that people were trying to kill my little brother, I heard voices and saw visions. Before that I was an atheist, someone headed down a very dark road. Most people would see this sort of thing as proof there is no God. I saw it as proof that if there is no God, that life isn't worthwhile. My intelligence, my knowledge, my physical appearance, they are 100% meant to glorify God. That is my purpose.

Mind you, this doesn't mean I should abandon everything and read the Bible 24 hours a day. But, whatever I do, I am to do it for the glorification of God. If I learn a new skill, or read about the Intel SSDs that are supposedly coming out on Tuesday, I am to realize that those things exist because of the type of universe that God created. God wants to be discovered, He wants people to seek Him out in whatever way they can or want. And that's why He tells us,"Ask and you shall receive, seek and you shall find, knock and the door will be opened." God will show Himself to anyone who wants to see him, if you don't want to believe in him than he won't show himself.

to jasong: We atheists who live with similar goals but still knowing
that there is no god but only existence, reality, nature, science,
knowledge, intelligence, morality, mathematics, a history of evolution,
and many other important good things sometimes refer to the bounty
of knowledge and things the universe can provide to us through our
own efforts "the benevolent universe", meaning benevolent in a secular,
non-religious, non-supernatural way.

The past is past. Go on to the future.