Is there a God?

[Mini-Geek]

Originally Posted by flouran

IMO, I don't believe in a God that is described by current religions. He's too human-like. Perhaps there is an infinite entity of love in this universe,
...
My point is that every religion's description/perception of God is man-made (that's something that goes without proof) and hence inevitable flawed in some aspect or another,

Let's say for a moment that there is "an infinite entity of love in this universe". Let's say that entity wanted to communicate to humans that it exists. Is there any way it could do so that would satisfy you that it actually exists and is not a man-made idea?

[davar55]

If you truly believe in a God, no one is going to convince you otherwise.

If you're not sure, at least you see the problem.

If you're sure there's no God but can't prove it, you owe yourself
some thinking.

And if you know there is no God and can prove it, then
no one can ever truly challenge you on this.

[Zeta-Flux]

Originally Posted by davar55

If you truly believe in a God, no one is going to convince you otherwise.

I disagree. People are unconverted all the time.

And if you know there is no God and can prove it, then
no one can ever truly challenge you on this.

I again disagree. They can ask for the "proof" and challenge that.

[davar55]

Originally Posted by Zeta-Flux

I disagree. People are unconverted all the time.

I again disagree. They can ask for the "proof" and challenge that.

1) Yes of course people can be unconverted, but only once they diverge
from "truly believing". Until then, it doesn't happen.

2) Others may attempt to challenge your proof, but if it truly is a proof,
like a mathematical one, it is unassailable.

[cheesehead]

Originally Posted by Mini-Geek

Let's say for a moment that there is "an infinite entity of love in this universe". Let's say that entity wanted to communicate to humans that it exists. Is there any way it could do so that would satisfy you that it actually exists and is not a man-made idea?

I see that your question is directed to flouran, but here's my answer if the same question were to be directed to me:

Of course! Just have the entity write a message in 4-mile-high letters across the near side of the Moon tomorrow, for instance. (Surely it could do so without disturbing any of the Apollo sites, couldn't it?)

There are lots and lots of ways any supernatural being of supposedly near-infinite power could show that it actually exists!

Somehow we never get such demonstrations with evidence that holds up under skeptical (non-believer) examination. "Evidence" that's only evident to believers (who "have faith") doesn't count (it fits the competing hypothesis that such an entity is only a man-made idea).

If a reply is that "an infinite entity of love in this universe" would not necessarily manifest itself by making such an unmistakable physical alteration, even on a smaller scale, then that's a convenient excuse -- it fails to falsify the competing hypothesis that such an entity would be only a man-made idea. The preponderance of evidence supports that competing hypothesis.

- -

Here's something similar, the "rabbit in the Precambrian": http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Precambrian_rabbit and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Precambrian_rabbit

[flouran]

Originally Posted by Mini-Geek

Let's say for a moment that there is "an infinite entity of love in this universe". Let's say that entity wanted to communicate to humans that it exists. Is there any way it could do so that would satisfy you that it actually exists and is not a man-made idea?

Yes. Through meditation. Prayer is a form of meditation, but many people make the mistake of thinking that God listens to us based on what we *tell* him via our words. The majority of religions portray God as a spiritual being, and as such, God comprehends our state-of-mind. If we are at peace and are in a constant state of love (which can be achieved through any form of meditation), then this entity, if He/She/It exists, *should* be able to communicate to humans.

I believe in a God of love, not in a God based on propaganda used for political reasons. I'd be happy to attend a sermon of any denomination just as long as they don't shove their beliefs down my throat or don't inform me of their beliefs and values in order to meet their own ends.

[Orgasmic Troll]

Originally Posted by flouran

Yes. Through meditation. Prayer is a form of meditation, but many people make the mistake of thinking that God listens to us based on what we *tell* him via our words. The majority of religions portray God as a spiritual being, and as such, God comprehends our state-of-mind. If we are at peace and are in a constant state of love (which can be achieved through any form of meditation), then this entity, if He/She/It exists, *should* be able to communicate to humans.

I believe in a God of love, not in a God based on propaganda used for political reasons. I'd be happy to attend a sermon of any denomination just as long as they don't shove their beliefs down my throat or don't inform me of their beliefs and values in order to meet their own ends.

And what the hell is love?

[flouran]

Originally Posted by Orgasmic Troll

And what the hell is love?

That's a question you need to answer for yourself.

[davieddy]

This ought to be a tribute to Gram Parsins.
I find it deliciously sacreligious!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RVEdY...1&feature=fvwp

[cheesehead]

"Dear God, please confirm what I already believe"

http://www.newscientist.com/article/...y-believe.html

God may have created man in his image, but it seems we return the favour. Believers subconsciously endow God with their own beliefs on controversial issues.

"Intuiting God's beliefs on important issues may not produce an independent guide, but may instead serve as an echo chamber to validate and justify one's own beliefs," writes a team led by Nicholas Epley of the University of Chicago in Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences.

The researchers started by asking volunteers who said they believe in God to give their own views on controversial topics, such as abortion and the death penalty. They also asked what the volunteers thought were the views of God, average Americans and public figures such as Bill Gates. Volunteers' own beliefs corresponded most strongly with those they attributed to God.

Next, the team asked another group of volunteers to undertake tasks designed to soften their existing views, such as preparing speeches on the death penalty in which they had to take the opposite view to their own. They found that this led to shifts in the beliefs attributed to God, but not in those attributed to other people.

Moral compass

"People may use religious agents as a moral compass, forming impressions and making decisions based on what they presume God as the ultimate moral authority would believe or want," the team write. "The central feature of a compass, however, is that it points north no matter what direction a person is facing. This research suggests that, unlike an actual compass, inferences about God's beliefs may instead point people further in whatever direction they are already facing."

"The experiments in which we manipulate people's own beliefs are the most compelling evidence we have to show that people's own beliefs influence what they think God believes more substantially than it influences what they think other people believe," says Epley.

Finally, the team used fMRI to scan the brains of volunteers while they contemplated the beliefs of themselves, God or "average Americans". In all the experiments the volunteers professed beliefs in an Abrahamic God. The majority were Christian.

n the first two cases, similar parts of the brain were active. When asked to contemplate other Americans' beliefs, however, an area of the brain used for inferring other people's mental states was active. This implies that people map God's beliefs onto their own.

. . .

"These findings help explain why supernatural religious agents are often attributed a physical form and issue edicts that resemble the social practices of the culture from which they emerge," says Jordan Grafman of the US National Institute of Neurological Disorders and Stroke in Bethesda, Maryland, whose team earlier this year linked emergence of religion with the development of "theory of mind", the capacity to recognise that other living things have independent thought and intentions.

As I've said before, there's plenty of evidence that Man created God, but none for the other way.

[rogue]

Originally Posted by cheesehead

"Dear God, please confirm what I already believe"

http://www.newscientist.com/article/...y-believe.html

As I've said before, there's plenty of evidence that Man created God, but none for the other way.

The way I like to say it is thus, "God was created in man's own image".