Slaughter in Gaza

[chalsall]

Originally Posted by R.D. Silverman

However, it may suggest that Muslims do not value each other's lives which in turn makes their complaints about Gaza into a farce.

Oh, wait! Its OK if they do it to each other, but not OK for the hated
Jews to do it......

Mr. Silverman...

Would you agree with the statement that humans killing other humans is ill-advised?

[R.D. Silverman]

Originally Posted by chalsall

Mr. Silverman...

Would you agree with the statement that humans killing other humans is ill-advised?

Your question is too wide open.

It is not ill advised in all circumstances.

Not in self defense, for example.

Not if done by request, for purposes of euthansia, as another example.

[chalsall]

Originally Posted by R.D. Silverman

Your question is too wide open.

It is not ill advised in all circumstances.

Not in self defense, for example.

Not if done by request, for purposes of euthansia, as another example.

Very clever. I would expect nothing less from you.

Taking your first example, self defence...

I have been in such situations, and although I could have, I didn't kill.

I certainly didn't kill many hundreds for everyone I knew who died.

May we live in interesting times....

[kladner]

Originally Posted by chalsall

[SNIP]May we live in interesting times....

I fear your words are already fulfilled, and getting fuller* all the time.

*i.e., our cup runneth over.

[ewmayer]

Originally Posted by R.D. Silverman

However, it may suggest that Muslims do not value each other's lives which in turn makes their complaints about Gaza into a farce.

False reasoning - you conflate "ISIS does not value the lives of those who do not agree with its narrow view of Islam" with "Muslims do not value each other's lives."

That sort of overgeneralization is the basest kind of stereotyping.

[tha]

Originally Posted by ewmayer

False reasoning - you conflate "ISIS does not value the lives of those who do not agree with its narrow view of Islam" with "Muslims do not value each other's lives."

Hmm, not just ISIS I am afraid. Just about every ruler in the Middle East with the exemption of the king of Jordan and of course that small country that in every aspect looks like a northwestern European country but has a mediterranean climate. But indeed, that does not constitute -muslim-.

[tha]

Europe and the US coerced Israel into releasing 1.000 prisoners, many of them with blood on their hands for killing Israelis. Such a first step was necessary they said to get the Palestinians to do a step as well. Europe and the US were a bit surprised to find out that that step turned out to be the replacement of a Palestinian government that recognizes Israel with a Palestinian government that is ambivalent about that and ended the 'negotiations'.

Next, Israel did not reinvade Gaza when the number of rockets originating from Gaza and aimed at Israeli villages and towns surrounding Gaza went up a bit. Israel did not reinvade Gaza when three teenagers were brutally murdered in what was obvious an invitation to do so, a clear escalation of the conflict. Israel did the reinvading of Gaza after Hamas extended the range of its missiles to about all of Israel and increased the amount of missiles to exceptional numbers.

The 72 hour cease fire started with the withdrawal of all Israeli forces from the Gaza strip and a volley of missiles from Gaza to Israel so close to the begin of the ceasefire start that the normal return of fire to originating positions was impossible without passing the official time of the cease fire begin. Israel did choose to ignore that last volley.

Did everyone notice who started firing today after the cease fire ended and did every one notice who was willing to extend the cease fire?

[R.D. Silverman]

Originally Posted by tha

Hmm, not just ISIS I am afraid. Just about every ruler in the Middle East with the exemption of the king of Jordan and of course that small country that in every aspect looks like a northwestern European country but has a mediterranean climate. But indeed, that does not constitute -muslim-.

Add to this the culture, pervasive throughout the Muslim world
of "honor killings", executions for "blasphemy", "infidelity", and other
minor crimes, rape of women under the badge of law for imagined
offenses, female circumcision, etc. etc., and I think that is clear
that as a culture Muslims do not respect other people who differ from
them.

Not "all" Muslims? Certainly, not "all". But the attitude is pervasive throughout
Muslim teachings. Kill the infidel.

[xilman]

Originally Posted by R.D. Silverman

Not "all" Muslims? Certainly, not "all". But the attitude is pervasive throughout Muslim teachings. Kill the infidel.

Go read Surah 109, Al-Kafirun. This quote from the Wikipedia article may be informative.

English Translation by Muhammad Shameem, Mohammad Wali Raazi and Muhammad Taqi Usmani:
[1] Say, "O disbelievers,
[2] I do not worship that which you worship,
[3] nor do you worship the One whom I worship.
[4] And neither I am going to worship that which you have worshipped,
[5] nor will you worship the One whom I worship.
[6] For you is your faith, and for me, my faith."

...

[Qur'an 109:1-6]
1. 1Say, "O you disbelievers/unbelievers [who knowingly cover up the truth, who obstinately reject faith, disbelievers in Allah, in His Oneness, in His Angels, in His Books, in His Messengers, in the Day of Resurrection, and in Al-Qadar (Predestination, Fate, Destiny), etc.],2
1. Surat Al-Kafirun: The Disbelievers. This surah of six verses was revealed in Makkah. It takes its name from the word al-kafirun in the first verse. Kafir means one who rejects faith in one, some, or all the principles of faith that must be believed in by a believing Muslim. The surah tells the Messenger, upon him be peace and blessings, and all other Muslims to be sure, determined, and steadfast in their faith against the unbelievers, and that they should not compel the unbelievers to accept faith. It defines the right attitude to those who reject Faith: in matters of Truth we can make no compromise, but there is no need to persecute or abuse anyone for his faith or belief.
The man of Faith holds fast to his faith, because he knows it is true. The man of the world, rejecting Faith, clings hard to worldly interests. Let him mind his worldly interests, but let him not force his interests on men sincere and true, by favor, force or fraud.
The Prophet mentioned that this surah is disassociation from shirk (worship of anything other than Allah) for him who recites it. (Narrated by Ahmad, Abu Dawud and at-Tirmidhi.)
2. Faith is a matter of personal conviction, and does not depend on worldly motives. Worship should depend on pure and sincere Faith, but often does not: for motives of worldly gain, ancestral custom, social conventions or imitative instincts, or a lethargic instinct to shrink from enquiring into the real significance of solemn acts and the motives behind them, reduce a great deal of the world's worship to sin, selfishness, or futility. Symbolic idols may themselves be merely instruments for safeguarding the privileges of a selfish priestly class, or the ambitions, greed, or lust of private individuals. Hence the insistence of Islam and its Teacher on the pure worship of the One True God. The Prophet firmly resisted all appeals to worldly motives, and stood firm to his Message of eternal Monotheism.
2. I do not worship what you worship.1
1. This verse is a declaration that there can be no reconciliation between faith in God and other so-called, invented deities.
3. Nor are you worshippers of what I worship.1
1. The unbelievers to whom the verse is addressed, or whom God's Messenger, upon him be peace and blessings, is addressing are those who are so obstinate in rejecting the faith that God informed His Messenger, upon him be peace and blessings, that they would never believe.
4. Nor will I be a worshipper of what you worship.
5. Nor will you be worshippers of what I worship.
6. You have your religion/faith/way (atheism, agnosticism, deism, theism, paganism, idolatry, polytheism, henotheism, pantheism, animism, reincarnation, etc., with whatever it will bring you), and I have a religion (Islamic Monotheism, with whatever it will bring me)."

Emphasis mine.

[R.D. Silverman]

Originally Posted by xilman

Go read Surah 109, Al-Kafirun. This quote from the Wikipedia article may be informative.

Emphasis mine.

Agreed. IN THEORY.

There is a big difference between practice and theory.

[xilman]

Originally Posted by R.D. Silverman

Agreed. IN THEORY.

There is a big difference between practice and theory.

True in every religion I've yet studied.