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Old 2008-10-21, 00:22   #1
cheesehead
 
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"Richard B. Woods"
Aug 2002
Wisconsin USA

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Default Electronic voting fraud vs. the old-fashioned type

Why is it that some early voters in West Virginia are having their votes for Democratic candidates on electronic touch-screen voting devices switched to the Republican side?

http://wvgazette.com/News/200810170676,

Quote:
"Leaving the polling place," she said, "I wondered how many voters might not have noticed that their vote was switched on the machine."
and

http://wvgazette.com/News/200810180251

Quote:
Shelba Ketchum, a 69-year-old nurse retired from Thomas Memorial Hospital, described what happened Friday at the Putnam County Courthouse in Winfield.

"I pushed buttons and they all came up Republican," she said. "I hit Obama and it switched to McCain. I am really concerned about that. If McCain wins, there was something wrong with the machines.

"I asked them for a printout of my votes," Ketchum said. "But they said it was in the machine and I could not get it. I did not feel right when I left the courthouse. My son felt the same way.

"I heard from some other people they also had trouble. But no one in there knew how to fix it," said Ketchum, who is not related to Menis Ketchum, a Democratic Supreme Court candidate.

Ketchum's son, Chris, said he had the same problem. And Bobbi Oates of Scott Depot said her vote for incumbent Democratic Sen. John D. Rockefeller was switched to GOP opponent Jay Wolfe.

"I touched the one I wanted, Rockefeller, and the machine put a checkmark on the Republican instead," Oates said of her experience Thursday.

She said she caught the mistake, called over a worker in the county clerk's office and was able to correct her vote. But she worries other voters may not catch such a mistake.

When asked if she is sure she touched the box for Rockefeller, she said, "I'm absolutely positive."
Are there reports of the opposite (Republican => Democrat on electronic voting devices) happening anywhere?

- - -

Republicans here in Wisconsin are making a fuss about registration fraud (and not just about ACORN), and I invite contributions on that, too.

Also, Republicans here want every voter to have to show an official picture ID card, which just happens to cut down the participation from folks such as a friend of mine who can't drive (so doesn't need or have a driver's license). The Republicans in our state legislature showed no enthusiasm for a provision that would fund providing an official picture ID to those eligible to vote but not possessing a satisfactory picture ID -- wonder why?

(I'll post more about this myself, but as I've mentioned elsewhere I'm temporarily without an Internet connection at home, and the logistics of using this library terminal limit how much I can thoughtfully post each day. Gotta stop now.)

- - -

Let's also have a comparison of the relative effectiveness of the new and the old ways!
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Old 2008-10-21, 02:07   #2
rogue
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cheesehead View Post
Republicans here in Wisconsin are making a fuss about registration fraud (and not just about ACORN), and I invite contributions on that, too.

Also, Republicans here want every voter to have to show an official picture ID card, which just happens to cut down the participation from folks such as a friend of mine who can't drive (so doesn't need or have a driver's license). The Republicans in our state legislature showed no enthusiasm for a provision that would fund providing an official picture ID to those eligible to vote but not possessing a satisfactory picture ID -- wonder why?
I can't say for certain if voter fraud is an issue, but I think that it is important that a reasonable method for verifying a person's identity at the poll is necessary. Obviously the Republicans want to make it hard just to get an ID. I can't say if voter fraud is rampant, but I do believe that it is easy to accomplish due to the current rules regarding proof of identity at the polls.

A friend sent me this link, which calls it the "The Republican voter fraud hoax".

BTW, I also don't see why the voter confirmation process isn't completely electronic. The idea that a registered voter's list is printed out weeks in advance (it is in Wisconsin) is stupid.

[rant]Then again, the state of Wisconsin would blow $100M on the problem and not have a solution after 5 years. It has been frustrating to see many failed software infrastructure projects fail in this state due to complete incompetence at all levels.[/rant]
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Old 2008-10-21, 02:36   #3
Jwb52z
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cheesehead View Post
Also, Republicans here want every voter to have to show an official picture ID card, which just happens to cut down the participation from folks such as a friend of mine who can't drive (so doesn't need or have a driver's license). The Republicans in our state legislature showed no enthusiasm for a provision that would fund providing an official picture ID to those eligible to vote but not possessing a satisfactory picture ID -- wonder why?
Your state doesn't allow a "non-driver ID"? I can't drive either, but I just went down to one of whatever Texas calls the department of motor vehicles places where people take the driving test and applied for it. I can't believe all states don't have this option.

Last fiddled with by Jwb52z on 2008-10-21 at 02:36
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Old 2008-10-21, 22:51   #4
cheesehead
 
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"Richard B. Woods"
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jwb52z View Post
Your state doesn't allow a "non-driver ID"?
It does, but not all non-drivers have a need for one -- or at least they didn't have a need for one in the past -- so there are quite a few eligible voters without one, and many of them will not have paid attention to (or been informed about) such a change until they try to vote on election day.

Republican party leaders here will not mind much if long lines at some precincts discourage some voters -- they've mailed out multiple absentee ballot applications (I got 6) to residents of areas that've voted mostly Republican in the past. I won't be shocked if as many as 50% of the ballots cast in my precinct this time are absentee or early-voting.

Last fiddled with by cheesehead on 2008-10-21 at 23:00
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Old 2008-10-23, 01:48   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cheesehead View Post
It does, but not all non-drivers have a need for one -- or at least they didn't have a need for one in the past -- so there are quite a few eligible voters without one, and many of them will not have paid attention to (or been informed about) such a change until they try to vote on election day.

Republican party leaders here will not mind much if long lines at some precincts discourage some voters -- they've mailed out multiple absentee ballot applications (I got 6) to residents of areas that've voted mostly Republican in the past. I won't be shocked if as many as 50% of the ballots cast in my precinct this time are absentee or early-voting.
I can see why sending them out would be bad in some cases, although I wish they'd just sent me one, but in Texas you actually have to fill out a form and snail mail it back in, or there is an online form if you know about it, and wait. I didn't know anywhere would just send them as a matter of course.

Last fiddled with by Jwb52z on 2008-10-23 at 01:49
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Old 2008-10-23, 01:53   #6
cheesehead
 
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"Richard B. Woods"
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jwb52z View Post
I can see why sending them out would be bad in some cases, although I wish they'd just sent me one, but in Texas you actually have to fill out a form and snail mail it back in,
Look again. What I received were 6 applications (which have to be filled out and sent back to the clerk's office) for absentee ballots, not 6 absentee ballots themselves.

Since the clerk's office is just a hundred feet away from the library from which I'm posting this, I walked mine (1, that is) in without a stamp.

Last fiddled with by cheesehead on 2008-10-23 at 01:54
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Old 2008-10-23, 01:59   #7
Jwb52z
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cheesehead View Post
Look again. What I received were 6 applications (which have to be filled out and sent back to the clerk's office) for absentee ballots, not 6 absentee ballots themselves.

Since the clerk's office is just a hundred feet away from the library from which I'm posting this, I walked mine (1, that is) in without a stamp.
No, I meant that in Texas you have to fill out a ballot request request form, I did mine online, to GET a request form to send back in and wait.
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Old 2008-10-23, 21:50   #8
cheesehead
 
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"Richard B. Woods"
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Oh ... a ballot-request request form ...

You filled in your ballot-request request form online; is it also available by mail? I.e., could you instead have asked, via telephone or postcard for example, that a paper ballot-request request form be mailed to you?

Could that online ballot-request request form alternatively be correctly described as a "Web page for requesting a ballot-request form"?

Last fiddled with by cheesehead on 2008-10-23 at 22:07 Reason: Removed seriously-OT musings
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Old 2008-10-24, 17:36   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cheesehead View Post
Oh ... a ballot-request request form ...

You filled in your ballot-request request form online; is it also available by mail? I.e., could you instead have asked, via telephone or postcard for example, that a paper ballot-request request form be mailed to you?

Could that online ballot-request request form alternatively be correctly described as a "Web page for requesting a ballot-request form"?
I think you can do it by telephone yes, and I assume by snail mail because you have to mail the ballot in that way anyway, but I don't know about post cards because I've never used them. Yes, you could call it a "Web page for requesting a ballot-request form. It is sort of overly complex, don't you think?

Last fiddled with by Jwb52z on 2008-10-24 at 17:39
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Old 2008-10-26, 08:51   #10
cheesehead
 
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"Richard B. Woods"
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jwb52z View Post
Yes, you could call it a "Web page for requesting a ballot-request form. It is sort of overly complex, don't you think?
Hmmm ... that might depend on whether ballot-request request forms comply with Department of Redundancy Department specifications.
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Old 2008-10-31, 01:13   #11
cheesehead
 
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"Richard B. Woods"
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Default When in Rome: "the way Italians do it"

I can't vouch for the accuracy of the statements in the following, but, if accurate, it seems to be a description of a fraud-resistant system in Italy. I wouldn't suggest a wholesale transplant of every provision unamended (e.g., the Identity Document and Election Card would be controversial) into the U.S., but there are parts that seem worthy of consideration:

"Italian paper electoral procedures"

http://www.electronic-vote.org/TERMINI/italians_en.php

Quote:
Unfortunately the next sentence in no more true because an italian magazine in November, 2006 made allegations about the results of the April, 2006 general elections. To clear any doubt both the Houses of the Parliament have decided to recount ballot papers. The "Senato" will recount only its blank and void ballots all over Italy. The verification of only blank and void ballot papers is possible since they are stored apart from valid ones. The "Camera" will recount all its ballots (valid, blank, void) voted in 10% of the polling rooms. The polling room to be verified will be randomly selected and the recount will last until next July (about). If it will be proven that official records match the results of recounting no further recountig will be done. Otherwise a full recount will occur. Here is the news in english. If the recount will confirm the result, the quality of the italian paper procedures will be proven!
By "the next sentence" is meant the following:

Quote:
In almost 60 years of democracy in Italy there have NEVER been any problems with the vote counts or declaration of the election results.
However, with that exception the article proceeds:

Quote:
Even in the 1950s and 1960s, which were years of strong contrasts between the two main political parties (Communist and Christian Democrats), NO-ONE ever questioned the legitimacy of the electoral results.

How is this possible?

Through the use of tangible ballot papers and public procedures open to democratic control!
Hand-written ballot-papers publicly counted (in the same room where they were voted) by randomly selected citizens

(The Italian Government introduced some information thecnology in the counting of votes for the last general elections of April 2006. It was an experiment and it involved only four regions (out of twenty) and about 20% of electors. Votes were still hand-written on ballot papers and manually counted by scrutineers at each polling room using the good old procedures. Electronic data collection occurred at the end of point 27 of the following list. Polling rooms sent their results directely to the Ministry of Interiors using computer networks. (point 28 of the following list).)


in fact up to now (2008) in Italy:

  1. The vote is considered the right and duty of each adult citizen.
  2. Every citizen is automatically included on the Electoral Register of the place in which he/she resides. No effort or procedure is required of the citizen.
  3. Voting takes place in polling stations organized by the local authorities (usually in schools)
    Polling stations are composed of several polling rooms ("seggio"), which are the electoral units where the voting actually happens. Each polling room is usualy a classroom. There are about 50000 polling rooms over the whole country.
  4. Local authorities enrol each voter on the list of the polling station nearest to his/her home. To help lazy voters do their duty. About 500 electors are enrolled in each polling room list.
  5. Each citizen is issued with an Election Card stating his/her enrolment in the Electoral Register of the assigned polling room. This card is valid for 18 elections.
  6. Elections usually last two consecutive days: Sunday and Monday to facilitate voting of people who work.
  7. Special categories of electors (soldiers, sailors at sea...) are allowed to vote in any polling room of the city they are in for service reasons. To allow people working for the Nation to vote.
  8. Special polling rooms are set up in hospitals and prisons. To allow the ill and the imprisoned to vote.
  9. All voting operations are public and any voter can be present throughout the entire activity of his/her polling room. Obviously they can also be present when their votes are counted.
  10. In each polling room one finds the following people at work:
    • A president (nominated by the Court of Appeal)
    • A secretary (chosen by the president)
    • Four assistants (scrutineers), appointed by the local authority.
      Up to the end of 2005 they were not appointed, but drawn by lot from all the electors by the local authoriry. The fact that four of the six persons involved were selected at random significantly reduced the possibility of illicit agreements between them.
    The work carried out at the polling room is paid for by the State and, except for serious personal reasons, is obligatory. Citizens selected for these electoral duties have the legal right to be absent from work to do their duty at the polling room. To help citizens in doing their duty in favour of democracy.
  11. A minimum of three of the six persons working at any polling room must ALWAYS be present. In this way, the possibility of illicit behaviour is reduced, given the need for a larger number of accomplices.
  12. People working in the polling room are allowed to vote there instead of where they are enrolled. So as not to interrupt their verification of the electoral procedures.
  13. All the operations of the polling room and the results of the count are reported in the official statement (two copies) and approved and signed by all the workers of the polling room; Official statements are also stamped on each page with the official polling room stamp. One copy of the official statement is sent to the Town Hall and the other to the Court together with all the ballot papers (voted or not voted).
  14. Each political party has the right to have a representative present in every polling room. This representative can check all the activities of the polling room but he/she cannot take part directly. They are even allowed to stand in the polling station (outside the polling room) during the night closure. So as not to leave the police forces unguarded!
  15. Members of the police forces are present in each polling station all the time (night & day). They physically protect the polling station and thus the reliability of the results.
  16. The police forces MAY NOT enter any polling room, unless specifically requested to do so by the president for reasons of public order. This is to avoid any possible intimidation of the voters and any influence on their voting (oppressive police presence actually occurred in Italy during the fascist period).
  17. At night, polling rooms are locked and doors and windows are sealed with paper tape which is signed by the polling station workers. In this way, any intrusion in the polling rooms would be noticed the following morning.
The procedures for the elections are as follows:


18. The local authorities provide each polling room with:
  • an official polling room stamp identified by a unique (in the whole of Italy) code that, until the start of the voting, is only known to the Minister of Internal Affairs.
  • slightly more ballot papers than the polling room will actually need (based on the number of citizen enrolled).
    Each polling room validates the number of ballot papers it requires according to its the Electoral Register. The rest are left in reserve for unforeseen circumstances. The required number of ballot papers are validated by means of the official polling room stamp and the signature of two scruteneers.
19. Throughout voting, the ballot papers can only be touched by the six persons assigned to the polling room (apart from the voters, obviously). The representatives of the parties cannot touch any ballot paper. In this way the risk of sabotaging votes and rendering them invalid is minimized

20. During the count, ballot papers with any redundant writing, beyond the expression of a valid vote, are considered void. This ensures that the ballot paper can never be traced back to the individual voter, hence, the voter cannot be pressured into voting for any particular party or candidate.

21. Voters must present an Identity Document and their Election Card.

22. Once the documents have been checked (the number of the Identity Document is written against the elector's name on the Register) the voter is given;
  • an indelible pencil, so the vote cannot be easily changed. Any ballot papers marked with any other writing instrument are considered void.
  • a ballot paper which is given to the voter unfolded. Both the voter and the president can confirm that it is in perfect condition and free of any markings that could invalidate it later during the count.
23. The elector goes into a booth and, unseen by anyone, votes freely. No voter can be accompanied into a booth unless they are blind (with the appropriate medical certificate) or handless. This is to ensure that voters cannot be influenced by the person accompanying them.

24. After folding the ballot paper so the vote is hidden, the voter leaves the booth, inserts the paper into the ballot box, gives the pencil back and collects the previously presented Identity Document and Election Card. The Election Card is returned duly stamped and dated to demonstrate that the elector has voted.

25. As the electors vote, one of the polling station scruteeres signs against their names in the Electoral Register. This ensures that the same person cannot vote more than once.

The counting procedures are the following:

26. Ballot papers (voted and not voted) must remain, at all times, inside the polling room they started off in. The ballot boxes are visible to everybody at all times. Ballot papers are only taken to their final destination when the counting is over and the results of the polling room are made public.

27. Each ballot paper is checked by all six of the polling station workers and any of the parties representatives. In case of disagreement about who to assign the vote to, the president decides a temporary "position", but that ballot paper is sent to Court for a final decision. The counting is simultaneously managed by two scrutineers who both have their own paper record. Paper records have one page for each party and candidate, each page is made of small numbered squares: 1, 2, 3, 4 and so forth. As each vote is assigned to a party (and/or a candidate) scruteeners find its page on their own paper record, cross the next empty square and loudly read its number. All the time the two voices say the same number there are no problem, as soon as they differ everybody stops and check what has happened.
The final result of each party (and/or candidate) is simply the number of the last crossed little square of its own paper record.

(At this point the 2006 electronic data collection was carried out: the name of the party/candidate voted on each ballot paper was put on a PC. At voting closure the electronic result was compared with the manual one and in case of discordance the official result was that of the manual count.)

28. At the end of the count, each polling room sends all the ballot papers and the official stamp to the competent authorities along with one copy of the official statement, signed by all six workers of the polling room. These are kept for a number of years. The government calculates the official figures from the official reports of the polling rooms. The second copy of the statement is collected by the local authorities.

(The electronic data collection stated that same polling room would have send their results directely to the Ministry of Interiors using computers. Such data transmission was experimental.)

29. Each local authority collects the results of its polling rooms and therefore calculates the results on a local level, independently of the national government.

30. Even parties calculate the results independently, since they have their representatives in each polling room. They can therefore compare their calculations with those of the government.

To help electors not to make errors:

31. Ballot papers are large (40cm x 25cm) and very simple because the shape, the colors and the quantity of printed text have a great impact on the readability of the ballot papers.

32. Electors are given a ballot paper for each election. For example when General Election and Town Council elections are run the same day, electors are given 3 ballot papers: one for the House, one for the Senate and one for the City Council.

33. Ballots papers are coloured according to the elections they are related to. Colours are widely publicized on TV and newspapers long before election day so that electors can prepare how to vote at home (e.g. decide to vote X on the green ballot paper and vote Y on the yellow one).

Here are some examples of italian ballot papers

that's the way italians do it!

In Italy, when the above procedures are used, electoral results are available within 6 or 8 hours. This very good speed is achieved by splitting the work into many small pieces (about 500 electors for each of the 50000 polling rooms). Voting ends usually at 3:00 p.m. and thus when Italians go to sleep the results are already known. Such results have mostly been final as vote verifications have rarely changed anything. Errors have been found in only a few polling rooms and an elected politician has never been replaced due to recounts.

Having at least 300000 ordinary people (six for each of the 50,000 polling rooms) involved in "producing" electoral results ensures that
nobody can ever commit acts of wide-scale electoral fraud.

Of course, if the local administrations manage to "pilot" the choice of scrutineers, if most of the polling room workers are fraudster, if the instructions provided by the Ministry are not read, understood or put into practice, if the work at the polling room is done unwillingly, without seriousness, or without a sense of the importance of the event, if the parties representatives are absent or don't check, if electors don't care what's happening or don't take part during the count, then certainly some results at a few polling rooms might not correspond with the true result.

In electronic voting a few technicians can alter any result with a few clicks of their mouse, especially if they are allowed to access electoral hardware and software.
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