Why aren't you a murderer?

[Zeta-Flux]

In my inexplicable rampage of creating thread which I later regret participating in, I thought I'd try one more time. Cheesehead said on another thread:

Just to head off a potential misinterpretation: Jwb52z means, I'm sure, that there are plenty of gay-haters whose attitudes towards gays is "I[gay-hater]'d kill you[gay] just as likely as to look at you[gay]".

Of course, such an attitude exists in only a small fraction of the religious, but in the US that amounts to so many that it's a very practical consideration for gays to ponder before being too public.

I can't help recalling that when I've first stated in forums (both mersenneforum.org and elsewhere) that I don't believe in God (as other than an idea in human minds), one of the first responses I've gotten, from ostensibly God-believing religious people, is "What keeps you from murdering (, raping, stealing, etc.)?"

In the past I was so taken aback by this unexpected-to-me response that I failed to answer effectively other than to wonder whether that inquiry meant that the only thing keeping that God-believing person from murdering was, literally, fear of retribution from God (as contrasted with simple human decency which we both shared, for example).

Since then, I've accumulated a better set of counters to the implied slur that I was not as fully human as the God-believer. One of them would be to point that out explicitly -- that behind some of the given surface reasons was the idea that one person is, if not a believer in God, considered less than fully human by the other.

I have previously pointed out that this "those-others-are-not-fully-human" idea is what has allowed some people to rationalize participation in, or at least toleration of, some atrocities such as the Holocaust (to which I intend to make no further mention in this discussion) or more modest instances such as invasion of a foreign country in order to remove a supposed-"monster" (i.e., not fully human) from his dictatorial position as head of a regime. Normally, people have an inhibition against murdering other people, but this barrier becomes lower if the other person is, somehow, not actually a full human being.

(Say, how long might it take for one of those God-fearing folks to speculate that because I considered Saddam Hussein fully human rather than a "monster", I must, therefore, be implying that what he did was not greatly reprehensible?

My short answer would be to point out that I've already written that people -- fully human people -- are quite capable of committing, and have committed, atrocities.)

(to be continued sometime by getting back to the connection with the thread topic by showing how gays are considered not fully human, but I have to stop there for now)

cheesehead, this intrigued me on a couple of levels. Let me give you some background before I ask you some questions.

The first thought I had when I read your post was, "I could totally see myself asking that question." Now, don't get me wrong. I wouldn't ask it for the same reasons those other people seemed to ask it. I wouldn't mean to imply you are less than human, or do not respect life. I would simply be interested in your personal moral base. A "what-makes-you-tick" question.

I would ask because atheism, in some senses, puzzles me. I understand some of its appeal, when put in naturalistic terms. But, even ignoring the spiritual aspects, I have logical/rational objections. We talked about these at some length previously. (At the time, I wasn't conversant enough with big names in atheism to present evidence that many of them believed atheism implied the human race is doomed, etc...) At any rate, the question about murder raises other questions.

Do atheists and believers have equivalent moral systems? (I would imagine we would both say no. In fact, I would add that there isn't one moral system for either group.) What impacts do those differences have? Does believing or non-believing have any noticeable benefit which *couldn't* be obtained in the other system? etc...

Maybe a better question than "what keeps you from murdering?" (and which would more accurately reflect the intent of my question) would be "where do you base your moral system?" Is morality what society at large says it is? Is it what just feels right to your sensibilities? Is it based on principles you've discovered in your lifetime which you cherish? etc... I would ask because, believe it or not, I think your answer would be similar to mine, even with our different beliefs about God.

Cheers,
Zeta-Flux

P.S. I would like it if people (other than cheesehead) limited their responses as much as possible, so as not to derail the purpose of the thread.

[S485122]

Originally Posted by Zeta-Flux

P.S. I would like it if people (other than cheesehead) limited their responses as much as possible, so as not to derail the purpose of the thread.

In that case you should have asked your question via a PM or other private means ! This is a forum !

Jacob

P.S. : Purpose of thread derailed because of your PS :-p

[rogue]

The following terms probably describe why many atheists don't believe in murder:
altruism
humanism

I would more interested in a topic on euthanasia (of humans). It touches on many end of life issues and many people have difficulty with it. I don't understand why. It is easy for us to put down a pet who is suffering, but if it were a parent or spouse, it becomes almost impossible. Why (as a race) do we have such a huge problem with it?

[davieddy]

When did you stop beating your wife?

[Zeta-Flux]

Originally Posted by S485122

In that case you should have asked your question via a PM or other private means !

Only if I didn't think others would be interested in the discussion, and/or participate when wanted. I said "limit" responses, not "forbid" them.

[Zeta-Flux]

Originally Posted by rogue

I would more interested in a topic on euthanasia (of humans).

Go ahead and start a thread on that topic if it intrigues you. :)

[ewmayer]

Originally Posted by Zeta-Flux

Why aren't you a murderer?

What makes you think I'm not?

Seriously, my problem here is that I'm an atheist - still waiting for the right Jealous God to come along in whose name I will feel motivated to murder the unbelievers, heretics and yeah, the worst of all, the mild skeptics.

The Flying Spaghetti Monster is, alas, a food-oriented God - a sort of galloping gourmand of deities - rather than a jealous or wrathful one. The whole "mass slaughter of the infidels" thing works rather poorly on a full stomach.

[only_human]

Some years back, I was engaged and attended my girlfriend's church. This was not easy for me because I wished to be polite, engaged in discussion, considerate of others, not disruptive, etc., despite disbelieving the religious aspects of what I heard.

This was not easy for me; I focused on secular elements of sermons, moral issues, logic, etc. Of course, I was able to firsthand see many ways that the church was helpful within the society around it.

It was some shock to me to learn that my girlfriend wanted to switch religions because she had previously annulled a marriage and needed an ecclesiastical annulment to marry at her Catholic church.

That was the first time I considered how some religious people make changes for convenience, perhaps great convenience.

I usually keep atheism private (because it is not often well received); by sticking to it, I deny myself comforts that professing to many religions could provide: forgiveness, absolution, moral certitude, belonging to esteemed groups of churchgoers, the comfort of some larger purposes to life, etc.

So, from my point of view, atheism is not easy, it is hard. I can't recall ever hearing anyone expressing an appreciation for any effort that atheism might take.

One thing that at least Christian religion can provide is forgiveness of sins. Under some conditions absolution may make a person at ease with a great number of sins committed, once forgiven.

So I ask, if you are Christian and can be forgiven for sins up to and including murder, why aren't you a murderer?

[Zeta-Flux]

Originally Posted by only_human

So I ask, if you are Christian and can be forgiven for sins up to and including murder, why aren't you a murderer?

Great question. For me personally, it is because my ultimate goal isn't simply to be sin-free/forgiven. It is to be Christ-like.

[Mini-Geek]

Originally Posted by only_human

So I ask, if you are Christian and can be forgiven for sins up to and including murder, why aren't you a murderer?

In addition to Zeta-Flux's argument of being Christ-like, imagine for a moment that you have a parent or friend or judge or something that would forgive you no matter what you did. Would that mean you'd want to be evil and need their forgiveness? No. Knowing you have forgiveness when needed isn't a "do evil and get out of trouble free" card.

[retina]

I'm not a murderer because of common decency. I don't understand why some people like to automatically assume that an atheist can not be a decent person?