Marriage and other LGBTQ Rights

[jasong]

Originally Posted by kladner

Forgive him, FSM. He is totally deluded, and not very christian in his attitudes toward others. There is a powerful whiff of supercilious Pride here, at the very least. This could also be termed self-righteousness.

Jason, I sincerely suggest that you work on your own karma, and leave that of others to them.

Judge not lest ye be judged.

I'm not judging the sinners, I'm judging the sin. And, while I'm not perfect, I know for a fact it's a bad idea to flaunt one's disrespect for God.

[Brian-E]

Originally Posted by jasong

And I don't comdemn homosexuals, I condemn homosexuality. Everybody sins, it's just the specifics that are different. I'm not claiming homosexuals go to Hell just for being homosexuals, but homosexuality is a sin and it isn't a good idea to practice or endorse it.

Are you at all concerned that receiving this message day after day, and/or dealing with the attitudes of peers who receive this message, would appear to be a major cause of suicide amongst LGBT teenagers? This group of young people is at much greater risk of suicide than the general youth population. Would you alter your message at all if you are specifically speaking to a young person trying to come to terms with his or her sexuality?

[kladner]

Originally Posted by jasong

I'm not judging the sinners, I'm judging the sin. And, while I'm not perfect, I know for a fact it's a bad idea to flaunt one's disrespect for God.

I have seen too much disrespect for humans and other living creatures/beings to really be that concerned about some people's superstitions of invisible friends.

EDIT: You are welcome to believe whatever you wish. You are protected in such beliefs in the US of A. However, those who do not share your beliefs can exercise their protected free speech by disputing your arrant nonsense.

[chappy]

Originally Posted by jasong

The marriage isn't the issue, the problem is that we have a school full of kids celebrating the sin.

Take off your blinders man! Did you even read either of the stories. Even following your narrow-minded view of the world they are celebrating the person not his lifestyle. To use your oft quoted and meaningless to anyone who doesn't accept your definitions phrase: They love the sinner whether or not they think he is a sinner.

What we have is a school full of kids willing to stand up against bigotry.

Originally Posted by jasong

I belong to New Life. And you're right, Christians sin. That's the point of Jesus' death on the cross. He didn't come for the righteous, He came for sinners. If there were even one righteous person on the Earth, Christ's death would be unnecessary. Christ was a bandaid, because otherwise the "earth experiment" would've been a total washout.

And I don't comdemn homosexuals, I condemn homosexuality. Everybody sins, it's just the specifics that are different. I'm not claiming homosexuals go to Hell just for being homosexuals, but homosexuality is a sin and it isn't a good idea to practice or endorse it.

Nobody on earth is righteous, and whose fault is that? I know what your going to say, you should already know what my response is.

As for the second paragraph, that line of thinking gets old see my above response.

And most importantly you still missed the whole point of my post. Christians like you pick and choose which "sins" you want to condemn. You come up with the most ridiculous excuses for it. You say these utterly stupid pat phrases anytime anyone calls you on it and don't think a whit about just how wrong and illogical your whole world view is.

I've said it before in the Atheism thread, we still live in the time when most Atheists and Agnostics (in the US) grew up in the Christian church, and we actually read the Bible which turned us into Atheists and Agnostics.

Originally Posted by jasong

I'm not judging the sinners, I'm judging the sin. And, while I'm not perfect, I know for a fact it's a bad idea to flaunt one's disrespect for God.

Hey look! There it is! and extra pat phrases so you don't even have to think about how what you have to say has real world effects on people... (and you don't "know for a fact" you believe it to be the case--fine. As Kieren says later you are free to do so, but don't expect us to buy into your nonsense. You might also think about what a terrible witness for your G-d holding onto such obviously wrong headed views are. As exemplified by the kids in these schools. They get it. #samelove

Originally Posted by Brian-E

Are you at all concerned that receiving this message day after day, and/or dealing with the attitudes of peers who receive this message, would appear to be a major cause of suicide amongst LGBT teenagers? This group of young people is at much greater risk of suicide than the general youth population. Would you alter your message at all if you are specifically speaking to a young person trying to come to terms with his or her sexuality?

An example of real world effects on people. But, of course, tempering the message would show actual love of the "sinner" instead of hate of the "sin" which is the real message. Lack of empathy, tacit bigotry, and a lifetime of psychological problems exacerbated by trying to cling to an ancient and nonsensical worldview.

See also: Our Southern Culture Wars gone fowl.

[chalsall]

Originally Posted by chappy

I've said it before in the Atheism thread, we still live in the time when most Atheists and Agnostics (in the US) grew up in the Christian church, and we actually read the Bible which turned us into Atheists and Agnostics.

Hear hear!!!

I actually tried to read the Bible. But then I cheated and read the last page, and found out the guy died -- it ruined the story for me....

[Fusion_power]

Christ was a bandaid, because otherwise the "earth experiment" would've been a total washout.

Interesting that you believe this.

1. God is all knowing and all powerful. This is standard conservative christian doctrine, omnipotence of God.
2. Jesus came to earth, the son of God, yet he existed from the beginning and he "was God". (see John 1)
3. Since God is all knowing, it follows that he knew Adam and Eve would sin.
4. Since Jesus was with God from the beginning, he knew that he would have to come to Earth before God made Adam.
5. Therefore it follows that Christ coming to Earth was NOT a bandaid.
6. And it also follows that Earth was not an Experiment, after all, God knows everything, why would he experiment.

Society has a way of sandpapering down any misfits, especially people who don't fit the popular stereotype. I happen to be a serious misfit in society, more intelligent than average, introvert, quiet type. I got quite a bit of sandpapering in school. It made me a bit more judicious in applying sandpaper to others because of how they live or who they are. I still disapprove of homesexuality, but I don't shove it in anyone's face.

[chalsall]

Originally Posted by Fusion_power

I still disapprove of homesexuality...

A sincere question.

Why?

[Fusion_power]

Sincere reply. Because the origin of a family was - and still is - to provide a supportive environment for children. Homosexual couples can't have children without external assistance. This leaves homosexual couples lacking in ability to created a functioning family. And yes, I see way too many male+female families that are totally dysfunctional but that is a topic for a different thread. This is as far as I will carry the topic because it gets "in someone's face" from this point on.

[chalsall]

Originally Posted by Fusion_power

Sincere reply. Because the origin of a family was - and still is - to provide a supportive environment for children. Homosexual couples can't have children without external assistance. This leaves homosexual couples lacking in ability to created a functioning family. And yes, I see way too many male+female families that are totally dysfunctional but that is a topic for a different thread. This is as far as I will carry the topic because it gets "in someone's face" from this point on.

I would argue that just because someone cannot have children (or choose not to have them, as I have), does not mean they cannot be supportive of children.

I often say to friends, "I like children as I like dogs. I can tolerate them for brief periods, so long as they belong to someone else....

[cheesehead]

Originally Posted by Fusion_power

Sincere reply. Because the origin of a family was - and still is - to provide a supportive environment for children. Homosexual couples can't have children without external assistance. This leaves homosexual couples lacking in ability to created a functioning family.

Therefore, it needs to be illegal for any childless married man to have a vasectomy, or any childless married woman to have a tubal ligation, right?

Furthermore, any such persons found to have undergone one of those illegal procedures must be forced to divorce immediately, right?

And in vitro fertilization must be prohibited, correct?

Any unmarried person who undergoes either of those sterilization procedures (such as me, for example) thus forfeits the right to marry, right? The doctor who performed mine should have had a legal obligation to report me to the authorities, right?

Or was the court clerk who issued marriage licenses supposed to have required me to produce a sperm sample and to have my intended bride undergo an internal examination sufficient to determine that her reproductive tract was fully functional?

Or do you have some word-dance around those logical consequences of your declaration about the relationship between homosexuals and families?

Or are you going to duck this challenge?

[LaurV]

Originally Posted by cheesehead

Therefore...