Marriage and other LGBTQ Rights

[Brian-E]

Originally Posted by jasong

Here in the US, we don't get a choice with some of our taxes, so when homosexuals get tax write-offs for something we(I mean Christians in this case) find offensive, it kind of affects our own tax burden. That's what offends me the most, I can't speak for other Christains.

It's like I've said before, I don't hate homosexuals, I hate homosexuality. Just like I don't hate murderers, I just want people to be safe.

Ah, okay. It's about paying less taxes then. Thanks for your honest response.

[jasong]

Originally Posted by Brian-E

Yes, the word certainly does seem to get used as a generic insult with no intended reference to sexuality. Unfortunately, that generates a lot of confusion amongst both those doing the insulting and those insulted, and it contributes to homophobia in general. This in turn leads to enormous distress amongst people, especially youngsters, who are coming to terms with their sexuality. Ultimately it can, and does, result in teenage suicides.

It saddens me when people commit suicide, homosexuals are people like anyone else. I prefer to say person and people, because God is a Person, and when I say person and people, instead of human being, I'm subconsciously acknowledging the fact that our significance comes from the fact that God loves us.

The thing that saddens me even more, though, is when people(not talking about you, but the general population) use suicide for political motives. It's kind of like the general anti-bullying movement, they're not solving the problem, they're just changing the direction of the bullying, imo.

Suicide is horrible, but lets make it about the people rather than some specific aspect of their personality.

[jasong]

Originally Posted by Brian-E

Ah, okay. It's about paying less taxes then. Thanks for your honest response.

While I do believe homosexuality is a sin, it's the tax situation that gets me in a lather. It's the main reason I brought up my own sexuality problem(even though I reject it, it's still a part of me). It angers me that homosexuality is so acceptable that people are seriously considering offering tax write-offs for them, and yet here I am, someone who hasn't offended in over half a lifetime, and people(I'm specifically thinking of the women on The View) want to "cut off [my] balls and fry them in a pan."

[only_human]

Instead of waiting a month for the official ruling out of the Supreme Court, California acted today to start marrying gay couples again. All four plaintiffs in the case got married today, just in time for tomorrow's gay pride celebration in San Francisco:
Same-sex weddings begin across California (latimes.com)

After the court’s action, Gov. Jerry Brown’s administration issued an order to county officials that same-sex couples should be granted marriage licenses.

“This means that same-sex marriage is again legal in California,” said a letter from the state registrar to all 58 county clerks. “Effective immediately, county clerks shall issue marriage licenses to same-sex couples in California.”

By 3:30 Friday afternoon, the weddings were underway. Atty. Gen. Kamala Harris performed the nuptials for Kris Perry and Sandy Stier, a Berkeley couple who were two of the four plaintiffs in a Supreme Court case decided this week. In Sacramento, county officials said they planned on staying open two hours later Friday to accommodate a potential wedding rush.

The 9th District Court of Appeals lifted the ban Friday afternoon, a day before San Francisco’s gay pride celebration, which promises to be bigger than normal this year.

Gay Couples Who Sued In California Are Married (nytimes.com)

Mayor Antonio R. Villaraigosa of Los Angeles, on his last day in office, officiated at the Friday evening wedding of Paul Katami and Jeffrey Zarrillo, the two other plaintiffs in the case. Until Friday afternoon, they had no idea when their marriage could take place.

“Nobody really knew; that’s what our lawyers are there for. We don’t really care about any of that at this point, but we’re on our way to see the mayor,” Mr. Zarrillo told KCRW, a public radio station in Los Angeles.

The pair was stuck in traffic en route from their home to the county office to obtain their marriage license and then to City Hall downtown. But by 6:30 they walked in front of dozens of television cameras, kissed Mayor Villaraigosa and were pronounced married.

“Your relationship is an inspiration to us all,” Mr. Villaraigosa said.“Today, your wait is finally over.”

“Equal feels different,” Mr. Katami said. Mr. Zarrillo, added: “Equal feels good.”

[kladner]

Originally Posted by chappy

love it!

That's great!

[kladner]

Originally Posted by jasong

Here in the US, we don't get a choice with some of our taxes, so when homosexuals get tax write-offs for something we(I mean Christians in this case) find offensive, it kind of affects our own tax burden. That's what offends me the most, I can't speak for other Christains.

It's like I've said before, I don't hate homosexuals, I hate homosexuality. Just like I don't hate murderers, I just want people to be safe.

So, do you object to hetero-married couples getting to file joint returns if it benefits their tax situation? If not, why not? If so, since marriage is being defined by religious standards, how does this square with separation of church and state?

[kladner]

Originally Posted by jasong

It saddens me when people commit suicide, homosexuals are people like anyone else. I prefer to say person and people, because God is a Person, and when I say person and people, instead of human being, I'm subconsciously acknowledging the fact that our significance comes from the fact that God loves us.

The thing that saddens me even more, though, is when people(not talking about you, but the general population) use suicide for political motives. It's kind of like the general anti-bullying movement, they're not solving the problem, they're just changing the direction of the bullying, imo.

Suicide is horrible, but lets make it about the people rather than some specific aspect of their personality.

I do not think that suicide can be reasonably separated from circumstances which put people in a mental state which lends itself to despair and self-destruction. These circumstances include bullying, and homophobic utterances by those with positions of authority and responsibility. To point out that there are antecedents to suicide IS NOT "us(ing) suicide for political motives," except in that politics are part of the means, in a democracy, of effecting changes in discrimination.

You, Jason, frequently tout your perceived deviation as some sort of grounds for speaking with authority on anything that is sexually related. Let me ask, were you, at the age of twelve or thirteen, sexually assaulted in a school locker room by guys several years older because of a perceived "deviation"? Do religious grounds justify a group of high school juniors and senior trying to force a seventh grade boy to service them? Would the judgement be any different if I had been closer to their ages? These older boys would certainly have identified themselves as good christians. They might even have cited religious justifications for their behavior. Whether such claims would have been doctrinally accurate is irrelevant if the perpetrators perceived such justifications in religious proscriptions of homosexuality.

I was being called "queer" before I knew what it meant. In that setting (south east Texas in the sixties) being intelligent, sensitive, and playing piano was enough to label me "queer" and make me the target of constant bullying, including from teachers. Administration considered that I was the problem because I was not a fighter, and did not kick ass to resolve the situation. Of course, if I had attempted to fight back, I would have gotten my butt severely beaten for fighting, even if the situation had been forced upon me.

When you say things like the above quotations, when you claim to "love" the people involved even as you condemn their "sins", and when you attempt to justify not correcting oppressive and destructive treatment of children because they "go against god's will", you sound an awful lot like my junior high principal. You also make your god sound like a brutal, heartless bastard.

If all this makes you feel oppressed as a christian, then welcome to the club of the oppressed.

[chappy]

Originally Posted by kladner

If all this makes you feel oppressed as a christian, then welcome to the club of the oppressed.

Yes, cry victim and let loose the dogs of war.

[ewmayer]

Originally Posted by kladner

So, do you object to hetero-married couples getting to file joint returns if it benefits their tax situation? If not, why not? If so, since marriage is being defined by religious standards, how does this square with separation of church and state?

Presumably in the same way putting "in god we trust" on the currency and elsewhere squares with the purported separation.

[xilman]

Originally Posted by ewmayer

Presumably in the same way putting "in god we trust" on the currency and elsewhere squares with the purported separation.

There wasn't room for the rest of it: "everyone else pays cash".

[chalsall]

Originally Posted by Brian-E

Yes, the word [(Gay)] certainly does seem to get used as a generic insult with no intended reference to sexuality.

I find it a bit interesting that historically "gay" meant something along the lines of "happy" and "out-there". Perhaps it still does to most people...

Four of many definitions of gay:

adjective (gayer, gayest)
   1 (of a person, especially a man) homosexual.  Relating to or used by homosexuals: "a gay bar"
   2 dated light-hearted and carefree: "Nan had a gay disposition and a very pretty face"
   3 dated brightly coloured; showy: "a gay profusion of purple and pink sweet peas"
   4 informal, often offensive foolish, stupid, or unimpressive: "he thinks the obsession with celebrity is totally gay"