Marriage and other LGBTQ Rights - Page 72

davieddy · 2013-03-16, 20:24

Most of us here being of a mathematical bent(sic), could we not picture a 2-D space with gender as one axis and sexual preference the other?

D

How about 2-D poll along the lines of "stick the tail on the donkey" as to where we would place ourselves?
As you might expect, at my age I have a clear idea of the zone in which I would place myself.

It would also be interesting to know where others would place me.

I suppose the bottom(sic) line is that on this forum we are not primarily too bothered.

When I met WBLipp I jested that he might have turned out to be a 13-year-old schoolgirl for all I knew. When he later repeated this as suitable night-time restaurant humour, we were nearly arrested on the spot!
(A couple of gays we were chatting to had asked us how we knew each other)

xilman · 2013-03-16, 21:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by davieddy

Most of us here being of a mathematical bent(sic), could we not picture a 2-D space with gender as one axis and sexual preference the other?

D

How about 2-D poll along the lines of "stick the tail on the donkey" as to where we would place ourselves?
As you might expect, at my age I have a clear idea of the zone in which I would place myself.

Quote:

Originally Posted by davieddy

When I met WBLipp I jested that he might have turned out to be a 13-year-old schoolgirl for all I knew. When he later repeated this as suitable night-time restaurant humour, we were nearly arrested on the spot!

I've also met wblipp and can confirm that the age of consent is not an issue in this country, so you had no reason to be fearful of arrest.

Paul

ewmayer · 2013-03-16, 21:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by Brian-E

I really like this story. I've never heard anything like it before in relation to intolerant behaviour towards gay people, and somehow it sounds like a watershed moment. It's as if that community in Ohio has passed a tipping point after which hatred of gay people, always the norm up until now, has suddenly become unacceptable to the degree that people will speak up about it when they see it occurring. Heart warming!

Reminds me of the 1988 movie Heathers, set in OH (but weather and scenery are obviously reflective of the filming locale, CA), at one point of which high school seniors J.D. (Christian Slater) and Veronica (Winona Ryder) are preparing "the perfect murder" of a pair of uber-jockish fellow HS students, by way of planting "evidence" at the scene which will convince the police that the jocks (both on the football team) killed each other in a secret-gay-relationship-gone-bad scenario:

J.D.: Well, ah... Let's take a look at some of the homosexual artifacts I dug up to plant at the scene.
[He picks up a shopping bag and pulls items out of it]
J.D.: All right. Got an issue of "Stud Puppy."
Veronica Sawyer: Great!
[She laughs]
J.D.: Candy dish. Joan Crawford postcard. Let's see, some mascara. All right. And here's the one perfecto thing I picked up. Mineral water.
Veronica Sawyer: Oh, come on, a lot of people drink mineral water, it's come a long way.
J.D.: Yeah, but this is Ohio. I mean, if you don't have a brewski in your hand you might as well be wearing a tu-tu.
Veronica Sawyer: Oh, you're so smart.

davieddy · 2013-03-17, 01:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by xilman

I've also met wblipp and can confirm that the age of consent is not an issue in this country, so you had no reason to be fearful of arrest.

Paul

Neither of us had any intent of assaulting each other in a sexual way.
But fear of arrest is another ball game

By "age of consent" I presume your defence would be "He said he was over 16 m'lud"

kladner · 2013-03-28, 01:37

I was listening to Rachel Maddow going over the Proposition 8 action in the Supreme Court today. Out of my distant past a song came into my head. For those who are not familiar with her work, I highly recommend Malvina Reynolds. Would that we had someone of her caliber around today.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Malvina_Reynolds

Lyrics and poetry:
http://people.wku.edu/charles.smith/MALVINA/homep.htm

God Bless the Grass Notes: words and music by Malvina Reynolds; copyright 1964 Schroder Music Company, renewed 1992. People often think of this as an ecology song, but Malvina wrote it after reading Mark Lane’s book, Rush to Judgment, about the Kennedy assassination. [I take it as a Civil Rights song, myself. -kl]

God bless the grass that grows thru the crack.
They roll the concrete over it to try and keep it back.
The concrete gets tired of what it has to do,
It breaks and it buckles and the grass grows thru,
And God bless the grass.

God bless the truth that fights toward the sun,
They roll the lies over it and think that it is done.
It moves through the ground and reaches for the air,
And after a while it is growing everywhere,
And God bless the grass.

God bless the grass that grows through cement.
It's green and it's tender and it's easily bent.
But after a while it lifts up its head,
For the grass is living and the stone is dead,
And God bless the grass.

God bless the grass that's gentle and low,
Its roots they are deep and its will is to grow.
And God bless the truth, the friend of the poor,
And the wild grass growing at the poor man's door,
And God bless the grass.

Brian-E · 2013-03-28, 17:39

Re "God Bless the Grass":

What strong lyrics! I can see so clearly where you're coming from when you interpret the song as concerning human rights. If I can see that, by the way, it's saying something: normally I don't respond to song lyrics or poetry of any kind, but I do in this case. Thanks for sharing this song: it's made my day!

On the issue of equal marriage, and the wider LGBT emancipation generally, it really does seem now as if the grass is coming through in its unstoppable, luscious greenery, despite the ever more outlandish and desperate attempts to cover it in concrete from the fast-dwindling opposition.

chalsall · 2013-03-28, 17:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by Brian-E

On the issue of equal marriage, and the wider LGBT emancipation generally, it really does seem now as if the grass is coming through in its unstoppable, luscious greenery, despite the ever more outlandish and desperate attempts to cover it in concrete from the fast-dwindling opposition.

There was an interesting post on /. recently...

Empirically, any parcels labeled "Atheist" were less likely to be delivered timely by the USPS. Or, delivered at all...

Separation of church and state?

Zeta-Flux · 2013-03-28, 18:45

I'm one of those few people who is so interested in this case, I've read many of the briefs and listened to the 80 minutes of argument in the Prop. 8 case. Here are my impressions.

1. Both sides presented their case well. Cooper (for Prop. 8) barely had time to finish many of his sentences, but he made his case. Olson (against Prop. 8) was also pushed repeatedly. He at one point got heated, but I think it was because he feels a lot of emotion for his position. Verrilli (the US solicitor general) was more that pushed, and I think did a very poor job.

2. Olson's weakest moment was claiming there was no time that gay marriage became illegal. It only came about because of a changing cultural view of homosexuality. He would have been better served to simply cite the 14th amendment (still a weak argument however). Look for the pro-gay-marriage crowd to frame it as Olson shot back at a wicked Justice Scalia (who himself was a little heated later!). Look for the pro-traditional-marriage crowd to frame it as an "evolving constitution" claim.

3. Cooper's weakest moment was when Justice Kagan asked about 55-year-olds, and whether we could prohibit them from getting married. Cooper did answer the question, but this same issue seems to trip lots of people up--his position is not that marriage is meant to promote child-bearing, but to protect the sex act (coitus). Cooper's response was that men remain fertile (in most cases) until they die, and thus we want them in stable monogamous relations (even if such relations do not produce children). Look for the pro-gay-marriage crowd to frame it as Cooper's "fumble" and that he admitted defeat and his position is irrational (without mentioning the actual response Cooper made). Look for the pro-traditional-marriage crowd to frame Kagan's answer as a hidden strict scrutiny question, and to repeat Cooper's answer.

4. Now, I'm going to get a little partisan in my analysis. Verrilli's position was plain incoherent and weak. If you think SSM should be legal, just say so. Stop trying to stay on the fence, and only try to get it declared unconstitutional if a state is actually doing what you view as good things for the LGBTQ group. Besides, such a decision would likely freeze gay-rights in states where they haven't done anything. They'd be afraid to pass anything or else they'd have to go the whole way. [This said from a pro-traditional-marriage proponent!]

cheesehead · 2013-04-02, 18:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by cheesehead

"GOP senator reverses gay-marriage stance after son comes out"
http://news.yahoo.com/blogs/ticket/g...-politics.html

"GOP Sen. Kirk Announces Support for Gay Marriage"
http://news.yahoo.com/gop-us-sen-mar...161815047.html

Quote:

GOP Sen. Mark Kirk of Illinois said Tuesday he supports gay marriage, becoming the second sitting Republican senator to make such an announcement in recent weeks.

Kirk, who previously opposed a constitutional amendment banning gay marriage, said in a post on his blog that "same-sex couples should have the right to civil marriage."

"Our time on this Earth is limited, I know that better than most," said Kirk, who suffered a stroke in January 2012. "Life comes down to who you love and who loves you back — government has no place in the middle."

Kirk went through months of rehabilitation before returning to work in Washington this January. He said in his blog post that when he went back to the Senate he promised himself he would return "with an open mind and greater respect for others."

. . .

Again, a Republican who has a change in viewpoint after an unexpected event in his life induces him to rethink ...

Dubslow · 2013-04-02, 18:58

He has always been a more socially moderate Republican.

(Edit: Are you sure this was actually a change in viewpoint? Or could it just be the first publicity on his viewpoint?)

cheesehead · 2013-04-02, 19:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dubslow

He has always been a more socially moderate Republican.

(Edit: Are you sure this was actually a change in viewpoint? Or could it just be the first publicity on his viewpoint?)

Thanks for calling my attention!

I had mis-read the article, thinking that it said Kirk had previously opposed gay marriage! It actually says, "... opposed a constitutional amendment banning gay marriage", but somehow I missed the double negative.

I apologize for my misreading.

So, you're right, I was wrong, and this was apparently not a change in viewpoint!

2013-03-16, 20:24	#782
davieddy "Lucan" Dec 2006 England 2×3×13×83 Posts	Most of us here being of a mathematical bent(sic), could we not picture a 2-D space with gender as one axis and sexual preference the other? D How about 2-D poll along the lines of "stick the tail on the donkey" as to where we would place ourselves? As you might expect, at my age I have a clear idea of the zone in which I would place myself. It would also be interesting to know where others would place me. I suppose the bottom(sic) line is that on this forum we are not primarily too bothered. When I met WBLipp I jested that he might have turned out to be a 13-year-old schoolgirl for all I knew. When he later repeated this as suitable night-time restaurant humour, we were nearly arrested on the spot! (A couple of gays we were chatting to had asked us how we knew each other) Last fiddled with by davieddy on 2013-03-16 at 21:13

2013-03-28, 01:37	#786
kladner "Kieren" Jul 2011 In My Own Galaxy! 2×3×1,693 Posts	I was listening to Rachel Maddow going over the Proposition 8 action in the Supreme Court today. Out of my distant past a song came into my head. For those who are not familiar with her work, I highly recommend Malvina Reynolds. Would that we had someone of her caliber around today. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Malvina_Reynolds Lyrics and poetry: http://people.wku.edu/charles.smith/MALVINA/homep.htm God Bless the Grass Notes: words and music by Malvina Reynolds; copyright 1964 Schroder Music Company, renewed 1992. People often think of this as an ecology song, but Malvina wrote it after reading Mark Lane’s book, Rush to Judgment, about the Kennedy assassination. [I take it as a Civil Rights song, myself. -kl] God bless the grass that grows thru the crack. They roll the concrete over it to try and keep it back. The concrete gets tired of what it has to do, It breaks and it buckles and the grass grows thru, And God bless the grass. God bless the truth that fights toward the sun, They roll the lies over it and think that it is done. It moves through the ground and reaches for the air, And after a while it is growing everywhere, And God bless the grass. God bless the grass that grows through cement. It's green and it's tender and it's easily bent. But after a while it lifts up its head, For the grass is living and the stone is dead, And God bless the grass. God bless the grass that's gentle and low, Its roots they are deep and its will is to grow. And God bless the truth, the friend of the poor, And the wild grass growing at the poor man's door, And God bless the grass. Last fiddled with by kladner on 2013-03-28 at 01:43

2013-03-28, 18:45	#789
Zeta-Flux May 2003 7·13·17 Posts	I'm one of those few people who is so interested in this case, I've read many of the briefs and listened to the 80 minutes of argument in the Prop. 8 case. Here are my impressions. 1. Both sides presented their case well. Cooper (for Prop. 8) barely had time to finish many of his sentences, but he made his case. Olson (against Prop. 8) was also pushed repeatedly. He at one point got heated, but I think it was because he feels a lot of emotion for his position. Verrilli (the US solicitor general) was more that pushed, and I think did a very poor job. 2. Olson's weakest moment was claiming there was no time that gay marriage became illegal. It only came about because of a changing cultural view of homosexuality. He would have been better served to simply cite the 14th amendment (still a weak argument however). Look for the pro-gay-marriage crowd to frame it as Olson shot back at a wicked Justice Scalia (who himself was a little heated later!). Look for the pro-traditional-marriage crowd to frame it as an "evolving constitution" claim. 3. Cooper's weakest moment was when Justice Kagan asked about 55-year-olds, and whether we could prohibit them from getting married. Cooper did answer the question, but this same issue seems to trip lots of people up--his position is not that marriage is meant to promote child-bearing, but to protect the sex act (coitus). Cooper's response was that men remain fertile (in most cases) until they die, and thus we want them in stable monogamous relations (even if such relations do not produce children). Look for the pro-gay-marriage crowd to frame it as Cooper's "fumble" and that he admitted defeat and his position is irrational (without mentioning the actual response Cooper made). Look for the pro-traditional-marriage crowd to frame Kagan's answer as a hidden strict scrutiny question, and to repeat Cooper's answer. 4. Now, I'm going to get a little partisan in my analysis. Verrilli's position was plain incoherent and weak. If you think SSM should be legal, just say so. Stop trying to stay on the fence, and only try to get it declared unconstitutional if a state is actually doing what you view as good things for the LGBTQ group. Besides, such a decision would likely freeze gay-rights in states where they haven't done anything. They'd be afraid to pass anything or else they'd have to go the whole way. [This said from a pro-traditional-marriage proponent!] Attached Thumbnails

2013-04-02, 18:58	#791
Dubslow Basketry That Evening! "Bunslow the Bold" Jun 2011 40<A<43 -89<O<-88 3×29×83 Posts	He has always been a more socially moderate Republican. (Edit: Are you sure this was actually a change in viewpoint? Or could it just be the first publicity on his viewpoint?) Last fiddled with by Dubslow on 2013-04-02 at 19:01

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2013-03-28, 17:39	#787
Brian-E "Brian" Jul 2007 The Netherlands 7·467 Posts	Re "God Bless the Grass": What strong lyrics! I can see so clearly where you're coming from when you interpret the song as concerning human rights. If I can see that, by the way, it's saying something: normally I don't respond to song lyrics or poetry of any kind, but I do in this case. Thanks for sharing this song: it's made my day! On the issue of equal marriage, and the wider LGBT emancipation generally, it really does seem now as if the grass is coming through in its unstoppable, luscious greenery, despite the ever more outlandish and desperate attempts to cover it in concrete from the fast-dwindling opposition.