Marriage and other LGBTQ Rights

[kladner]

Originally Posted by jasong

I've placed in bold where the problem lies. Even if a person hasn't been to church in forever, the belief that there is a loving God that has a plan for your life tends to change your behavior in a major way.

People don't respond to stimuli in the same way when they believe the world is ordered and intentional. It's all about the long view, faith in God is almost equal to faith in the idea of eternity.

Maybe I'm wrong and Jesus isn't Lord. But if He isn't Lord, I don't see a reason to give a damn about anything. Some say God plus nothing, I say God OR nothing. I've examined the basic tenets of the major religions and Christianity is the only one that doesn't appear to turn into hell if you have to tolerate it for eternity. I don't want to face Mecca seven times a day for all eternity(legalism is immoral according to the Bible) and I don't want to be absorbed into nothing in the next trillion years. I'm drawing a blank on the other ones, but I don't think they've changed in any major way in the last decade, imo.

You are entitled to your beliefs. That entitlement ends when you try to apply your beliefs to others. Freedom of Religion also means that one is entitled to be Free from the Religions of others.

"But it does me no injury for my neighbor to say there are twenty gods or no God. It neither picks my pocket nor breaks my leg."
Thomas Jefferson

[chappy]

it makes so much more sense now...

[Jwb52z]

Christianity would be ok if it weren't basically, when you boil it down to its basics, racist and homophobic and mysogenistic and repressive. Talking to fervent believers is pointless in this day and age because they actually think they know everything that matters or know where to find any answer that matters and everything else is misguided at least and evil at worst.

[Zeta-Flux]

Christianity would be ok if it weren't basically, when you boil it down to its basics, racist and homophobic and mysogenistic and repressive. Talking to fervent believers is pointless in this day and age because they actually think they know everything that matters or know where to find any answer that matters and everything else is misguided at least and evil at worst.

My experience has been quite the opposite. I understand that this world is a big one, and Christianity is a big tent with lots of different denominations inside. So, I don't discount the above could be someone else's experience. But I would be remiss not to recount my own.

In my experience, those who believe in Christ are taught to respect women. This manifests in many ways. Chastity before marriage, and complete fidelity after marriage, are just two big issues. Those who attend religious services several times a week are significantly less likely to divorce than the general public. I'm extremely grateful for what I've been taught about women, and how it has helped me develop a loving relationship with my wife.

One of the central tenets of my faith is that we are the children of God, he is the father of our spirits. We are all a family. I've heard multiple sermons about treating all mankind with respect, and that racism and bigotry have no place in our hearts. I am extremely grateful for the teaching that we are literally brothers and sisters, spiritually.

The first, and great commandment, is to love God. The second is like unto it, to love our neighbor. And who is our neighbor? Perhaps the one we might naturally think is different. Someone with a different faith, or a different skin color, or is covered in tattoos. Someone who has a different sexual orientation. Perhaps even someone who has wronged us. I have never been taught to fear those who perform homosexual acts, nor to hate them. Quite the opposite, I've been taught, and in fact am commanded, to love them. In my experience, it is often Christians calling for increased respect.

I am also taught that "the glory of God is intelligence." The universe is a place in which to improve oneself, to grow and increase in knowledge and understanding.

These are just a few of the many blessings that have come into my life because I believe in Christ.

[Brian-E]

Well, I thought I'd heard all the arguments by now in the same sex marriage debate, but I have to admit it: this one is new to me. It's always good to hear a fresh idea, isn't it?
New Zealand lobbyist says equal marriage will bring increase in crime

[cheesehead]

Originally Posted by Brian-E

Well, I thought I'd heard all the arguments by now in the same sex marriage debate, but I have to admit it: this one is new to me. It's always good to hear a fresh idea, isn't it?
New Zealand lobbyist says equal marriage will bring increase in crime

At the end of that article:

Originally Posted by http://www.pinknews.co.uk/2013/01/20/new-zealand-lobbyist-says-equal-marriage-will-bring-increase-in-crime/

. . .

Earlier this week, the head of an evangelical church in Auckland was discovered attempting to rig a cabinet minister’s poll on a pending equal marriage bill.

See? That bill is already breaking down the basic morals of at least one evangelical pastor, even before its final passage!

[NBtarheel_33]

Originally Posted by Jwb52z

Christianity would be ok if it weren't basically, when you boil it down to its basics, racist and homophobic and mysogenistic and repressive. Talking to fervent believers is pointless in this day and age because they actually think they know everything that matters or know where to find any answer that matters and everything else is misguided at least and evil at worst.

Not Christianity, but the denominations and churches, captained by ignorant ratchet-jaw "ministers", that operate as poor franchises thereof. Keep in mind that the Westboro Baptist Church would have you believe it to be a Christian church, when in reality, comparing their ignorance, hatred, and total lack of compassion, empathy, or humanity with what is espoused by Jesus Christ's teachings yields a total dichotomy.

Racism - *Carefully* read the first chapters of Genesis. I only recently did this myself. Notice the creation of male and female in Genesis 1:26-27, *before* that of Adam and Eve in Genesis 2! This (1) settles the infamous childhood question of how more people got to the earth when only Adam, Eve, Cain, and Abel were present, and (2) answers how there were people living in the Land of Nod where Cain settled after being sent out for killing Abel. More importantly, however, it allows us to conclude that God must have created all peoples and races on the sixth day. He made them all and He loves them all equally and is equally proud of them, and He would beseech us to show that same love and respect. Christ would continue to reinforce this. A "Christian" spouting racism is therefore an oxymoron, a contradiction. It's pretty lousy for someone to suggest they are a Christian if they can't even grasp the first couple of chapters of Genesis.

Homophobia - Regardless of how damning the Bible may be (or may be interpreted to be) of homosexuality (or anything else for that matter - note that alcoholics, drug addicts (i.e. "sorcerers"), and adulterers/fornicators, et al. are also in big trouble if we take the literal interpretation of the text), the keen Christian ought to remember Matthew 7:1 and "judge not lest ye be judged", and Matthew 22:39 ("love thy neighbor"). It is not for us to decide who God favors, or who is going to Heaven or Hell. A true Christian realizes this, practices this, and leaves the judgment to the Lord. He doesn't need us doing His job.

Misogyny - There is absolutely no room for this in a proper Christian's testimony. If we back up to the Creation account in Genesis, and reference the original Hebrew text (the Massarah), we see that the removal of Adam's "rib" to create Eve is a metaphor. Rather, the "rib" is the "curve" of Adam, or in other words, the feminine portion of his being. (Sort of gives an understanding of the term "my better half" when a man speaks of his wife!) That is, Adam and Eve essentially represent the division of the human form and spirit into masculine and feminine. Godly men should therefore respect women as much as they respect themselves. The Bible also teaches that all of us must be "born of the water" in order to have a chance to return to the Lord. This is often interpreted to mean baptism, however, this is not the case. What is being referred to is birth via the waters of a woman's womb. In other words, God requires every spirit to be sent to Earth and to be born of woman - their mother - in order to live out their lives as ordained by God. I'd say that this makes women pretty darn important. Finally, one should consider that the holy tradition of marriage between a man and a woman is the Earthly representation of the relationship between Christ and His church. Marriage is therefore not to be taken lightly, and a man is expected to honor and glorify his wife just as Christ would honor and glorify His church. There is absolutely no way that misogyny fits in with such an ideal or commandment. Again, a Christian misogynist is a fool, an oxymoron, and a total contradiction of the faith.

Very, very, very few so-called Christians actually understand the Bible's teachings (hint: reading it on a literal basis, without the basis of the original texts, is not a good way to proceed, and leads to severe crises of faith and misunderstanding of the Word), and hence excellent teachers are needed to simply exposit the Word of God on a chapter-by-chapter, verse-by-verse basis without unsupported commentary, analysis, or editorializing. I have found The Shepherd's Chapel with Pastor Arnold Murray to be one such source of edification. He has his detractors on the Web, but honestly, all I have ever heard him preach (or not preach, more importantly!) is the Word of the Lord as it is in the Bible and nothing more. He puts many of these alleged Christian churches (which are anything but) and their tendencies to lead their parishioners astray, to shame.

[Brian-E]

Originally Posted by NBtarheel_33

[...]Homophobia - Regardless of how damning the Bible may be (or may be interpreted to be) of homosexuality (or anything else for that matter - note that alcoholics, drug addicts (i.e. "sorcerers"), and adulterers/fornicators, et al. are also in big trouble if we take the literal interpretation of the text), the keen Christian ought to remember Matthew 7:1 and "judge not lest ye be judged", and Matthew 22:39 ("love thy neighbor"). It is not for us to decide who God favors, or who is going to Heaven or Hell. A true Christian realizes this, practices this, and leaves the judgment to the Lord. He doesn't need us doing His job.[...]

I fully understand that you felt the need to respond to Jwb52z. Just say the word if you, or anyone else, feel that your lengthy post about Christianity deserves placing in a new topic (or else appended to an existing thread about Christianity) so that it can be discussed in detail.

But this is your first post in the long-running thread about opening marriage up to same sex couples, and I for one am intrigued to know what you think about this. Does your idea that Christians should not attempt to judge others extend to removing any bar to same sex couples from marrying each other as opposite sex couples can do?

[Zeta-Flux]

The Prop. 8 proponents and the House of Representatives have submitted their opening briefs. They can be found here and here respectively.

If you are not aware of what exactly the Prop. 8 proponents, or the House of Representatives, are arguing, you may want to take a look at these documents.

[cheesehead]

"GOP senator reverses gay-marriage stance after son comes out"
http://news.yahoo.com/blogs/ticket/g...-politics.html

Gee, I guess it looks different when the gays & lesbians are not just "them" or "those people"^* (possibly not-fully-human, or else making a conscious choice of affectional preference), but instead are folks one personally knows whom one has previously treated as fully-human in all other ways before their homosexuality was known to oneself.

- - -

^* While I was waiting in line for tickets to the November 2004 George W. Bush victory rally in Milwaukee, the folks just ahead of me discussed "those people" (spoken with a slightly different accent on that phrase than the rest of the sentences, and sometimes with a noticeable glance at my fully-bearded visage in what seemed to be an otherwise thoroughly clean-cut Republican queue, judging by the queuers' political comments), which in their conversation unambiguously referred to homosexuals.

[Brian-E]

Originally Posted by cheesehead

Gee, I guess it looks different when the gays & lesbians are not just "them" or "those people"^* (possibly not-fully-human, or else making a conscious choice of affectional preference), but instead are folks one personally knows whom one has previously treated as fully-human in all other ways before their homosexuality was known to oneself.

Yes. Further to what you write, I believe that the fact that gays, lesbians and bisexual people are a large enough minority, hidden up until very recently by necessary secrecy rather than by small numbers, is one of the main driving forces behind the recent phenomenal upturn in the group's emancipation. It's actually more the norm to have one or more gay people in your closest family and circle of friends than not, and the republican senator's change of attitude over the validity of same sex relationships after his son came out as gay is illustrative of the breakdown of the "those people" attitude as you put it - nothing to do with "us" and perhaps not even fully human - which allows discrimination and worse to continue.

Naturally that is not the whole story behind changing attitudes, though, otherwise things would be bleak indeed for a much smaller oppressed minority: transgender people. It is much less likely that a given individual actually knows anyone who is trans, even allowing for the secrecy with which trans people also conceal their true nature prior to any "coming out". Legal recognition is however taking place in the most enlightened countries of the world, and even in some of the theocratic dictatorships such as Iran, for people who are not the gender which they were physically born as. Whether this legal recognition of someone's right to alter the gender on their birth certificate is matched by any serious change in social attitudes towards the tiny minority of trans people is not so clear to me though.